Nordiska Örlogsfartyg

[Korpen]

A kind of ship I expect to build about 40-50 a year off, with a turnover rate of about ten to fifteen years.
Mainly intended for the army's naval squadrons they can be used both for defensive operations preventing enemy ship breaking trough inshore, and for offensive operations assisting with fire support and troops transports. Weight in included for a brig rigging as well as oars. The later is mainly intended for finer manoeuvres while in combat position (were one might not want the steam plant in operation due to the risk of explosion if it is hit) or other times were precision is needed. The large overhangs are to make embarkation and debarkation easier.

KS103, Nordisk Kanonslup laid down 1874

Displacement:
   63 t light; 67 t standard; 70 t normal; 73 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (84,05 ft / 75,00 ft) x 17,39 ft x (3,28 / 3,38 ft)
   (25,62 m / 22,86 m) x 5,30 m  x (1,00 / 1,03 m)

Armament:
      1 - 5,91" / 150 mm 22,0 cal gun - 77,16lbs / 35,00kg shells, 50 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1874 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck aft
      1 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 30,0 cal gun - 2,55lbs / 1,15kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1874 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      Weight of broadside 80 lbs / 36 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0,31" / 8 mm         -               -
   2nd:   0,20" / 5 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 49 ihp / 36 Kw = 8,00 kts
   Range 600nm at 6,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   11 - 15

Cost:
   £0,006 million / $0,023 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 6 tons, 8,9 %
      - Guns: 6 tons, 8,9 %
   Armour: 1 tons, 1,9 %
      - Armament: 1 tons, 1,9 %
   Machinery: 11 tons, 15,6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 38 tons, 54,5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7 tons, 9,9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 7 tons, 9,2 %
      - Hull below water: 5 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 1 tons
      - Above deck: 1 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     92 lbs / 42 Kg = 1,2 x 5,9 " / 150 mm shells or 0,2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,78
   Metacentric height 0,9 ft / 0,3 m
   Roll period: 7,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,24
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,38

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a round stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,576 / 0,579
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4,31 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 8,66 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 40,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4,92 ft / 1,50 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20,00 %,  4,92 ft / 1,50 m,  3,28 ft / 1,00 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00 %,  3,28 ft / 1,00 m,  3,28 ft / 1,00 m
      - Aft deck:   35,00 %,  3,28 ft / 1,00 m,  3,28 ft / 1,00 m
      - Quarter deck:   15,00 %,  3,28 ft / 1,00 m,  4,92 ft / 1,50 m
      - Average freeboard:      3,54 ft / 1,08 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85,6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 51,6 %
   Waterplane Area: 909 Square feet or 84 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 145 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 36 lbs/sq ft or 177 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,98
      - Longitudinal: 3,01
      - Overall: 1,10
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Jefgte]

... large overhangs are to make embarkation and debarkation easier.

Vikings are back with their Drakkars !!!


;)

[Korpen]

... large overhangs are to make embarkation and debarkation easier.

Vikings are back with their Drakkars !!!


;)

Are you Finnish? Only langue I know that use "kk" and not "ck".
If you think about longships, that would be "Drakar".

[Jefgte]

You could wrote with the number of K that you want...
K - KK- KKK...

Result is identical.

Devastations (not the BB) are coming on European coasts

:'(  :'(  :'(

[Korpen]

First a note on the gunsloops; the  main guns is capable of being landed, either to carry more then the normal 60 soldiers for transport, or to land the gun for use from shore. The latter would be common during winter when the boats are dragged up from the water.

Here we have the flagships of the army's naval squadrons. Plenty of firepower, capability to move about 300 infantrymen as well as real operational mobility, they are veritable battleships of the inshore fleet.

Sveaborg, Nordisk Skärgårdsfregatt laid down 1873

Displacement:
   572 t light; 605 t standard; 650 t normal; 686 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (172,49 ft / 157,48 ft) x 24,28 ft x (8,20 / 8,60 ft)
   (52,58 m / 48,00 m) x 7,40 m  x (2,50 / 2,62 m)

Armament:
      3 - 4,72" / 120 mm 30,0 cal guns - 41,95lbs / 19,03kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1873 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward deck aft
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck forward
      2 - 5,91" / 150 mm 25,0 cal guns - 77,16lbs / 35,00kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1873 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      5 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 30,0 cal guns - 2,52lbs / 1,14kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1873 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck aft
      1 raised mount
      Weight of broadside 293 lbs / 133 kg
      Mines
      10 - 1 102,31 lbs / 500,00 kg mines - 4,921 t total
   in Above water - Stern racks/rails

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1,57" / 40 mm         -               -
   2nd:   1,97" / 50 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0,16" / 4 mm         -               -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,85" / 47 mm
   Forecastle: 1,57" / 40 mm  Quarter deck: 1,57" / 40 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 550 ihp / 410 Kw = 11,26 kts
   Range 700nm at 10,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 81 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   63 - 83

Cost:
   £0,047 million / $0,186 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 34 tons, 5,2 %
      - Guns: 28 tons, 4,3 %
      - Weapons: 6 tons, 0,9 %
   Armour: 131 tons, 20,2 %
      - Armament: 25 tons, 3,8 %
      - Armour Deck: 107 tons, 16,4 %
   Machinery: 127 tons, 19,5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 260 tons, 40,0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 78 tons, 12,0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 20 tons, 3,1 %
      - Hull above water: 10 tons
      - On freeboard deck: 10 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     794 lbs / 360 Kg = 20,2 x 4,7 " / 120 mm shells or 0,6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,42
   Metacentric height 1,1 ft / 0,3 m
   Roll period: 9,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 80 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2,00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,725 / 0,730
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6,49 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 12,55 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 40
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 50,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   10,00 %,  9,84 ft / 3,00 m,  11,48 ft / 3,50 m
      - Forward deck:   20,00 %,  11,48 ft / 3,50 m,  9,84 ft / 3,00 m
      - Aft deck:   60,00 %,  9,84 ft / 3,00 m,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m
      - Quarter deck:   10,00 %,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m,  6,56 ft / 2,00 m
      - Average freeboard:      8,79 ft / 2,68 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 80,3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 83,6 %
   Waterplane Area: 3 134 Square feet or 291 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 133 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 56 lbs/sq ft or 273 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,97
      - Longitudinal: 3,25
      - Overall: 1,10
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Carthaginian]

Where do the infantrymen fit?
There isn't any weight for them.

Aside from that, they are nice little gunboats.

[Korpen]

Where do the infantrymen fit?
There isn't any weight for them.

Aside from that, they are nice little gunboats.

The frigate got plenty of misc. weight; soldiers are pretty light after all.
In the case of the smaller one it is mainly the fact that the historic ship I based her on had a crew of over 60 people on a much lighter hull.
Basically the soldiers fit were ever they happen to sit. :)
It should be noted that we are not talking about any long sea voyages here, but rather across straits or inter-archipelago transports, sleeping and eating is done ashore. 

[Carthaginian]

Where do the infantrymen fit?
There isn't any weight for them.

Aside from that, they are nice little gunboats.

The frigate got plenty of misc. weight; soldiers are pretty light after all.
In the case of the smaller one it is mainly the fact that the historic ship I based her on had a crew of over 60 people on a much lighter hull.
Basically the soldiers fit were ever they happen to sit. :)
It should be noted that we are not talking about any long sea voyages here, but rather across straits or inter-archipelago transports, sleeping and eating is done ashore. 

A good guess for that is about 5 soldiers per ton.
I can tell you that completely dressed out in combat gear, with a couple of weeks worth of supplies tasty snacks and a few changes of clothes, I weigh in at a slim and trim 320 pounds. Now, I realize that men 'back in the day' were a bit smaller, but I don't think you'll get more than 6 troops per ton.
If you land ever single weapon, and if the troops inhale and exhale in alternating pairs... well, you COULD fit the troops on the boat I guess.

Now, how easily you could manage to offload them would be a very different matter entirely. ;)

[Korpen]

A good guess for that is about 5 soldiers per ton.
I can tell you that completely dressed out in combat gear, with a couple of weeks worth of supplies tasty snacks and a few changes of clothes, I weigh in at a slim and trim 320 pounds. Now, I realize that men 'back in the day' were a bit smaller, but I don't think you'll get more than 6 troops per ton.
If you land ever single weapon, and if the troops inhale and exhale in alternating pairs... well, you COULD fit the troops on the boat I guess.

Now, how easily you could manage to offload them would be a very different matter entirely. ;)

Talking about average weights it is about 70kg for the man (given that average height for 18-20 years old were just below 170cm http://www.scb.se/Grupp/Hitta_statistik/Historisk_statistik/_Dokument/Historisk%20statistik%20för%20Sverige_%20Del%201.pdf
), with normal combat gear, 100kg even is a pretty good assumption.  So just from a weight perspective it is ten men per ton.
But even on the small one they would have more then 1m3 each to sit on, especially considering she got benches so the men can row her, so no need to land the guns. :)
Getting off should be no problem, just run along the middle and just off the stern or bow, they got about the same drought as a ww2 landing craft.

[Carthaginian]

Well, perhaps... maybe your people are smaller than Americans.
Even in 1944- after a few months of starving and freezing- my Pops tipped the scales at about 140 pounds... add in about 100 pounds worth of combat gear, ammo, and not a little bit of 'acquired gear' and you get about 250 pounds. That gives a max of 8 men per ton- per MY ton, that is... using your ton, you'd get 9 men. So 10 men is a bit high, but simple enough.

You and I run into more trouble over the whole Metric ton vs Imperial ton issue. ;)

A square meter of space... damn.
You're packing them in, aren't you. I've had to bring full gear into that kind of space a few times... never for more than a few hours, and generally only on aircraft. With that kind of space, on a ship, in the North Sea, in the winter... yeah- I'd hate to be one of your Marines. :D

[Korpen]

Well, perhaps... maybe your people are smaller than Americans.
Even in 1944- after a few months of starving and freezing- my Pops tipped the scales at about 140 pounds... add in about 100 pounds worth of combat gear, ammo, and not a little bit of 'acquired gear' and you get about 250 pounds. That gives a max of 8 men per ton- per MY ton, that is... using your ton, you'd get 9 men. So 10 men is a bit high, but simple enough.

You and I run into more trouble over the whole Metric ton vs Imperial ton issue. ;)

A square meter of space... damn.
You're packing them in, aren't you. I've had to bring full gear into that kind of space a few times... never for more than a few hours, and generally only on aircraft. With that kind of space, on a ship, in the North Sea, in the winter... yeah- I'd hate to be one of your Marines. :D

Well I went by the 1880 data, today average height here is 1,815 m (or about 4cm more then the USA), and so about 12cm more then back then.
One m3 is about twice as much as you will find in a modern ICV, but as you point out it is not for long journeys. However this kind of ships are not really intended for operations on the open sea, but mainly in the archipelagos along the cost of Sweden (mainly in the Gulf of Finland) and around the Danish isles and Norwegian fjords.

[Carthaginian]

One m3 is about twice as much as you will find in a modern ICV, but as you point out it is not for long journeys. However this kind of ships are not really intended for operations on the open sea, but mainly in the archipelagos along the cost of Sweden (mainly in the Gulf of Finland) and around the Danish isles and Norwegian fjords.

Only big deal is with the ICV, most of your gear is stashed OUTSIDE the troop compartment.
Duffels are left back in the barracks/tent/etc. Rucks are tied on the side of the vehicle.

In this setup, there is a good chance that you're going to be bringing that duffel and that ruck along with you. You have to be carrying things around, stacking them in the space that the men will take up- piled on deck, stowed under benches, etc. Additionally, if they are being carried for an amphibious landing... well, those things must be kept fairly close at hand.

I still think you're gonna be pushing things a bit if you want to pretend this is an overgrown landing craft as there is probably enough room...
But not enough weight unless you are willing to sacrifice some firepower, as you only have 200 men worth of weight, even by your calculations. So I say that you're overloading it, by about 100 men, with your initial claims of 300 men.

[Korpen]

Only big deal is with the ICV, most of your gear is stashed OUTSIDE the troop compartment.
Duffels are left back in the barracks/tent/etc. Rucks are tied on the side of the vehicle.

In this setup, there is a good chance that you're going to be bringing that duffel and that ruck along with you. You have to be carrying things around, stacking them in the space that the men will take up- piled on deck, stowed under benches, etc. Additionally, if they are being carried for an amphibious landing... well, those things must be kept fairly close at hand.

I still think you're gonna be pushing things a bit if you want to pretend this is an overgrown landing craft as there is probably enough room...
But not enough weight unless you are willing to sacrifice some firepower, as you only have 200 men worth of weight, even by your calculations. So I say that you're overloading it, by about 100 men, with your initial claims of 300 men.

..or only carry 70 instead of 80 tons of coal (or no mines)...
On the frigates there is much more then 1m3 space it should be noted. The 300men estimate is quite simply that the historic ships which's dimension I copied had a fighting crew of over 350 men so there is no doubt that there is room enough. But yes it is cramped when fully loaded, I do not imagine anything else.

A related anecdote: I remember that we managed to squeeze in two platoons on a single TGB 30 ( A Scania 9-ton lorry made for the Swedish Army) with combat gear, so about 50 people on a flatbed rated for 4,5 ton. Yes, one felt like a sardine. :)

[Korpen]

The last sort of ships for the inshore fleet: the monitor.
Small and shallow she can tackle opponent several times her own size at home ground.
Metacentric height is high to compensate for lousy sea keeping, this allow her to successfully survive even fairly harsh weather (by Baltic standards) when crossing outshore.

HMS Gerda, Nordisk 3:e klassens pansarbåt laid down 1870

Displacement:
   460 t light; 483 t standard; 500 t normal; 513 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (118,11 ft / 118,11 ft) x 26,25 ft x (8,20 / 8,39 ft)
   (36,00 m / 36,00 m) x 8,00 m  x (2,50 / 2,56 m)

Armament:
      1 - 9,84" / 250 mm 22,0 cal gun - 330,69lbs / 150,00kg shells, 70 per gun
     Breech loading gun in Coles/Ericsson turret mount, 1870 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck aft
      Weight of broadside 331 lbs / 150 kg

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   8,66" / 220 mm   7,09" / 180 mm            -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1,57" / 40 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 146 ihp / 109 Kw = 8,00 kts
   Range 598nm at 7,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 30 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   52 - 68

Cost:
   £0,038 million / $0,150 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 49 tons, 9,8 %
      - Guns: 49 tons, 9,8 %
   Armour: 145 tons, 29,0 %
      - Armament: 95 tons, 19,1 %
      - Armour Deck: 50 tons, 9,9 %
   Machinery: 36 tons, 7,2 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 231 tons, 46,2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 40 tons, 7,9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     459 lbs / 208 Kg = 1,4 x 9,8 " / 250 mm shells or 0,7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,46
   Metacentric height 1,3 ft / 0,4 m
   Roll period: 9,7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 15 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,11
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0,12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,688 / 0,691
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4,50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 10,87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 39 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 39
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,00 ft / 0,00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   25,00 %,  1,31 ft / 0,40 m,  1,31 ft / 0,40 m
      - Forward deck:   30,00 %,  1,31 ft / 0,40 m,  1,31 ft / 0,40 m
      - Aft deck:   20,00 %,  1,31 ft / 0,40 m,  1,31 ft / 0,40 m
      - Quarter deck:   25,00 %,  1,31 ft / 0,40 m,  1,31 ft / 0,40 m
      - Average freeboard:      1,31 ft / 0,40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 54,4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 11,7 %
   Waterplane Area: 2 438 Square feet or 227 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 134 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 89 lbs/sq ft or 436 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1,05
      - Longitudinal: 1,67
      - Overall: 1,10
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

[Carthaginian]

Boy, I hope these ships don't leave the harbor.
They won't float very well on the ocean floor.

Korpen, while I agree that a river monitor might be able to get away with lousy seakeeping, I have to say that this ship takes that kind of thing to an unhealthy extreme. Your ship will be completely swamped in any kind of seas, and will not be able to survive the kind of weather which all too often plague the area.