Spanish Navy

Logi · August 27, 2011, 06:52:31 PM

IAB stands for Ibérica Armada Barco (roughly Iberian Navy Ship).

First try, heavy firepower with slightly smaller secondary (wanted more secondary for balance, but ship would be too large). Main battery layout is fore and aft turret with a mid-centerline turret. No wing turrets because it's impossible to fit the ship with another turret and having one off-center turret by itself is odd to say the least. - Secondary 8" turrets are located at the sides (wing) fore (superstructure) whilst the 6" casemates are located at the sides aft (superstructure)

1% Above / 4% Under arrangement of misc weight, simulating a Brigantine (1/3 SS speed with sails). Complete hull coverage with main belt and upperbelt (ie: all above waterline is armored).

Mission is to deny Gibraltar access from foes and naval gunfire support for any possible missions into Africa. (This is largely because almost every major city in North Africa is located within 10 kyd of shore -range of guns predicated to be ~9 kyd at 12.5 degrees- a situation quite different from Europe in which this is not the case).

All-iron ship with composite armor. Feedback?

QuoteIAB Gloria, Iberia Battleship laid down 1877

Displacement:
   9,619 t light; 10,114 t standard; 10,920 t normal; 11,565 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (300.00 ft / 300.00 ft) x 65.00 ft x (28.00 / 29.44 ft)
   (91.44 m / 91.44 m) x 19.81 m x (8.53 / 8.97 m)

Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm 20.0 cal guns - 694.94lbs / 315.22kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1877 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 25.0 cal guns - 208.62lbs / 94.63kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1877 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck centre
6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 30.0 cal guns - 89.31lbs / 40.51kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1877 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
Weight of broadside 5,540 lbs / 2,513 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.3" / 362 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   5.00" / 127 mm   300.00 ft / 91.44 m   4.00 ft / 1.22 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   10.0" / 254 mm        -
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm   3.00" / 76 mm        -
   3rd:   3.00" / 76 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck: 2.00" / 51 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,522 ihp / 5,611 Kw = 15.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,451 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   533 - 694

Cost:
   £0.797 million / $3.189 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 487 tons, 4.5 %
   Armour: 3,462 tons, 31.7 %
     - Belts: 2,122 tons, 19.4 %
     - Armament: 757 tons, 6.9 %
     - Armour Deck: 583 tons, 5.3 %
   Machinery: 1,624 tons, 14.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,566 tons, 32.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,301 tons, 11.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 481 tons, 4.4 %
     - Hull below water: 385 tons
     - Above deck: 96 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,386 lbs / 4,257 Kg = 13.5 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.24
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 13.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.13

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.700 / 0.705
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.62 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 17.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -22.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.00 ft / -0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Aft deck:   30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Quarter deck:   20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Average freeboard:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 55.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 15,630 Square feet or 1,452 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 833 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 3.20
      - Overall: 1.10
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Tanthalas · August 27, 2011, 07:19:11 PM

To borrow from everyone else, why are you trying to build Brandenburg in 1877 (I got yelled at for proposing the same thing for 1875 but im sure the complainers wont care if you do it)

as to the ship over all
3K range on boilers no need for the sail rig. As to the layout it wont fit on 300' trust me I have tryed to draw it on 330' and it flat out dosnt fit, Fact is its damn tight on 380'. Armor belt is to tall for the period (the main belt that is it should be around 8' tall fill in the rest with the upper).

Logi · August 27, 2011, 09:19:46 PM

I actually though it probably wouldn't fit on 300', but 360' should be fine. Or so I thought, I don't see how it would need 380' (Brandenburg was 380' and it looks pretty spacey to me). It's using the line drawings for the admiral class (330' as the comparison).

Last I checked there was a debate, but not a consensus as to it ( A-Q-Y arrangement). I also noticed that the penetration vs armor on this predreadnoughts meant that, even the secondaries (smaller than 8") would not penetrate the armor (upper armor) unless the ships were within 300 yds. (The Spanish navy intends to have a battleline, rather than rammed, so such close ranges will likely not be achieved - close combat puts the ship at risk of being rammed and then taken over after fighting --- it's also been the naval tradition to go with heavy and powerful ships rather than close infighting).

Hence, in this design, secondaries, rather than given the emphasize, are given the support role. (This does not mean to destroy small ships, but to pound the enemy ship so that they can't fire well enough. ie: artillery suppressive fire) According, if more larger guns can be carried without sacrificing too much of the suppressive fire, carry more guns. In addition (to carry a heavier medium caliber secondary rather than an an extensive small-caliber secondary for more concussive effect). Accordingly, having BL guns work to allow more cover for the gunners under suppresive fire (even if they are less efficient).

Therefore, according to this theory, neither all-big-guns are wished for nor extensive 6-4" secondaries. Because according to that theory, going all-big-gun, leaves one's own ship subject to this "suppressive" fire and thus heavily lowering accuracy whilst the enemy can pound away with relative ease. Going mostly-secondary leaves one open to being pounded as suppressive fire doesn't kill.

I can draw parallel to a fictional situation. Say we two castles (land warfare) with tall walls. Each side has a bunch of archers and a few cannons. The archers, whilst they can not penetrate the wall, they can prevent the enemy archers from getting a clear shot. Only the cannon can shoot through the wall, but they can be suppressed by archer fire. Thus the plan is, get a decent amount of archers (but only as much as needed to suppress whenever the cannon is brought out of cover to fire) and as many cannons as can be held without sacrificing everything else. (That's the theory that the IAB is operating at. A theory that will be completely out of date as battle ranges extend, since the "archers" will no longer be able to hit)

Also, I quite dislike the cookie-cutter Twin A-Y turret look. I find it incredibly ugly. I much prefer the asymmetry of A-Q-Y.

------------

Fixed the belt height, increased the no. of 8-inchers, removed the sailing rig, increased belt thickness, increased belt length, fixed conning tower armor, reduced deck armor (in light of the fact that plunging hits won't happen and that the whole upperhull is armored - save superstructure).

Again- All-Iron Ship with Composite armor.

Feedback? Unless there's something new to say about the use of A-Q-Y, I would like to keep it out of this design, since there's been enough in Tan's).

QuoteIAB Gloria, Iberia Battleship laid down 1877

Displacement:
   9,950 t light; 10,491 t standard; 11,307 t normal; 11,959 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (360.00 ft / 360.00 ft) x 65.00 ft x (26.00 / 27.27 ft)
   (109.73 m / 109.73 m) x 19.81 m x (7.92 / 8.31 m)

Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm 20.0 cal guns - 694.94lbs / 315.22kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1877 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
6 - 8.00" / 203 mm 25.0 cal guns - 208.62lbs / 94.63kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1877 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck centre
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck centre
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm 30.0 cal guns - 89.31lbs / 40.51kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1877 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,136 lbs / 2,783 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   360.00 ft / 109.73 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   8.86" / 225 mm   360.00 ft / 109.73 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   10.0" / 254 mm        -
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm   3.00" / 76 mm        -
   3rd:   3.00" / 76 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck: 1.00" / 25 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,064 ihp / 5,270 Kw = 15.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,469 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   547 - 712

Cost:
   £0.822 million / $3.290 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 576 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 3,790 tons, 33.5 %
     - Belts: 2,508 tons, 22.2 %
     - Armament: 839 tons, 7.4 %
     - Armour Deck: 334 tons, 3.0 %
     - Conning Tower: 109 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,525 tons, 13.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,060 tons, 35.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,357 tons, 12.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10,402 lbs / 4,718 Kg = 15.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 14.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.656
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.54 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -22.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.00 ft / -0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Aft deck:   30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Quarter deck:   20.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Average freeboard:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 56.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,933 Square feet or 1,666 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 852 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.02
      - Longitudinal: 2.09
      - Overall: 1.10
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Logi · August 27, 2011, 11:38:00 PM

The next battleship series for the IA.

It was thought that the battle-line should have very similar capabilities in speed and turn radius (mainly because it's so difficult to sail in formation at this period). Also large jumps in size may produce unexpected design problems, so the displacement will be held back to increase (relatively) slowly.

Increase in length by 20 ft (making more space for the crowded deck condition), beam by 1, higher bc. Better armored all around.

QuoteIAB Aragón Iberia Battleship laid down 1880

Displacement:
   11,700 t light; 12,309 t standard; 13,126 t normal; 13,780 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (380.00 ft / 380.00 ft) x 66.00 ft x (26.00 / 27.13 ft)
   (115.82 m / 115.82 m) x 20.12 m x (7.92 / 8.27 m)

Armament:
6 - 13.50" / 343 mm 30.0 cal guns - 1,045.40lbs / 474.19kg shells, 60 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1880 Model
     3 x Twin mounts on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
6 - 8.00" / 203 mm 35.0 cal guns - 221.31lbs / 100.38kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1880 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck centre
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck centre
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 95.43lbs / 43.29kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1880 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
Weight of broadside 8,364 lbs / 3,794 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   380.00 ft / 115.82 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   9.00" / 229 mm   380.00 ft / 115.82 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   8.00" / 203 mm   3.00" / 76 mm        -
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck: 1.00" / 25 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 16.90" / 429 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,520 ihp / 5,610 Kw = 15.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,472 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   613 - 797

Cost:
   £1.146 million / $4.584 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,094 tons, 8.3 %
   Armour: 4,350 tons, 33.1 %
     - Belts: 2,657 tons, 20.2 %
     - Armament: 1,113 tons, 8.5 %
     - Armour Deck: 376 tons, 2.9 %
     - Conning Tower: 203 tons, 1.5 %
   Machinery: 1,554 tons, 11.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,702 tons, 35.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,427 tons, 10.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11,286 lbs / 5,119 Kg = 10.8 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.77
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.705 / 0.709
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -22.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.00 ft / -0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Aft deck:   30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Quarter deck:   20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Average freeboard:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 62.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,184 Square feet or 1,875 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 186 lbs/sq ft or 910 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.02
      - Longitudinal: 2.03
      - Overall: 1.10
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Logi · August 27, 2011, 11:51:36 PM

Ships reworked away from A-Q-Y arrangement.

Gloria has staggered wing turrets at the aft, allowing full broadsides, but also allowing 4 12" fire on any chasing ships (as expected from the ramming ships). Also allows for a small angle for forward full "broadside" from the main battery although this wasn't planned.

QuoteIAB Gloria, Iberia Battleship laid down 1877
Central citadel ship

Displacement:
   9,950 t light; 10,491 t standard; 11,307 t normal; 11,959 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (360.00 ft / 360.00 ft) x 65.00 ft x (26.00 / 27.27 ft)
   (109.73 m / 109.73 m) x 19.81 m x (7.92 / 8.31 m)

Armament:
6 - 12.00" / 305 mm 20.0 cal guns - 694.94lbs / 315.22kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1877 Model
     1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck centre
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck centre
6 - 8.00" / 203 mm 25.0 cal guns - 208.62lbs / 94.63kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1877 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck centre
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm 30.0 cal guns - 89.31lbs / 40.51kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1877 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
Weight of broadside 6,136 lbs / 2,783 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   360.00 ft / 109.73 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   9.00" / 229 mm   360.00 ft / 109.73 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   10.0" / 254 mm        -
   2nd:   5.00" / 127 mm   3.00" / 76 mm        -
   3rd:   3.00" / 76 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck: 1.00" / 25 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 10.00" / 254 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,064 ihp / 5,270 Kw = 15.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,469 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   547 - 712

Cost:
   £0.822 million / $3.290 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 576 tons, 5.1 %
   Armour: 3,799 tons, 33.6 %
     - Belts: 2,517 tons, 22.3 %
     - Armament: 839 tons, 7.4 %
     - Armour Deck: 334 tons, 3.0 %
     - Conning Tower: 109 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,525 tons, 13.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,050 tons, 35.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,357 tons, 12.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     10,399 lbs / 4,717 Kg = 15.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.18
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 14.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.53
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.650 / 0.656
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.54 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.97 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 62
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -22.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.00 ft / -0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Aft deck:   30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Quarter deck:   20.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Average freeboard:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 66.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 56.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,933 Square feet or 1,666 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 174 lbs/sq ft or 850 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.02
      - Longitudinal: 2.14
      - Overall: 1.10
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

QuoteIAB Aragón, Iberia Battleship laid down 1880

Displacement:
   11,700 t light; 12,309 t standard; 13,126 t normal; 13,780 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (380.00 ft / 380.00 ft) x 66.00 ft x (26.00 / 27.13 ft)
   (115.82 m / 115.82 m) x 20.12 m x (7.92 / 8.27 m)

Armament:
6 - 13.50" / 343 mm 30.0 cal guns - 1,045.40lbs / 474.19kg shells, 60 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1880 Model
     1 x Twin mount on centreline, evenly spread
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck centre
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
6 - 8.00" / 203 mm 35.0 cal guns - 221.31lbs / 100.38kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1880 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward evenly spread
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck centre
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 95.43lbs / 43.29kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1880 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck centre
Weight of broadside 8,364 lbs / 3,794 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   380.00 ft / 115.82 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   9.00" / 229 mm   380.00 ft / 115.82 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   8.00" / 203 mm   3.00" / 76 mm        -
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck: 1.00" / 25 mm For and Aft decks
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 17.40" / 442 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,520 ihp / 5,610 Kw = 15.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,472 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   613 - 797

Cost:
   £1.146 million / $4.584 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,094 tons, 8.3 %
   Armour: 4,356 tons, 33.2 %
     - Belts: 2,657 tons, 20.2 %
     - Armament: 1,113 tons, 8.5 %
     - Armour Deck: 376 tons, 2.9 %
     - Conning Tower: 209 tons, 1.6 %
   Machinery: 1,554 tons, 11.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,696 tons, 35.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,427 tons, 10.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     11,281 lbs / 5,117 Kg = 10.8 x 13.5 " / 343 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.78
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.14

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.705 / 0.709
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.76 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -22.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.00 ft / -0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Aft deck:   30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Quarter deck:   20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Average freeboard:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 62.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,184 Square feet or 1,875 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 186 lbs/sq ft or 909 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.02
      - Longitudinal: 2.02
      - Overall: 1.10
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Carthaginian · August 28, 2011, 10:16:08 AM

Quote from: Logi on August 27, 2011, 11:51:36 PM
Ships reworked away from A-Q-Y arrangement.

Gloria has staggered wing turrets at the aft, allowing full broadsides, but also allowing 4 12" fire on any chasing ships (as expected from the ramming ships). Also allows for a small angle for forward full "broadside" from the main battery although this wasn't planned.

Yeah... you might wanna check up on what kind of blast effects this will have to learn why firing along the length of the ship is a practical impossibility even though it is theoretically possible. You'll basically be doing the same thing to your superstructure that South Dakota did to her spotter planes.

Logi · August 28, 2011, 10:55:19 AM

It's not remotely possible at this period anyways (a ship can't even time together to fire a full salvo). I just thought it was funny since I noticed it was theoretically possible (only after I designed the ship).

Now (one of) the design(s) for 1885-

Replacing the 6 x 13.5"/30 main battery with a 4 x 17.72"/20.5 main battery and adding a tad of armor to the deck, increased the no. of 8-inchers, etc. The 17.72"/20.5 cal is the historic one used on the Italian ships and for the coastal defense of Malta.

I could design it to have three twins (with the staggered wing turrets) but that would require too much of a tonnage jump (to ~15 kton)

QuoteIAB Lisbon, Iberia Battleship laid down 1885

Displacement:
   12,500 t light; 13,217 t standard; 13,949 t normal; 14,535 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (380.00 ft / 380.00 ft) x 72.00 ft x (26.00 / 26.95 ft)
   (115.82 m / 115.82 m) x 21.95 m x (7.92 / 8.21 m)

Armament:
4 - 17.72" / 450 mm 20.5 cal guns - 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 60 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1885 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
8 - 8.00" / 203 mm 40.0 cal guns - 235.96lbs / 107.03kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1885 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 99.56lbs / 45.16kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1885 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 10,684 lbs / 4,846 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   380.00 ft / 115.82 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Upper:   9.00" / 229 mm   380.00 ft / 115.82 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   8.00" / 203 mm   3.00" / 76 mm        -
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.50" / 38 mm
   Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm Quarter deck: 1.50" / 38 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 18.00" / 457 mm, Aft 15.90" / 404 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,486 ihp / 5,585 Kw = 15.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,318 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   641 - 834

Cost:
   £1.240 million / $4.959 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,178 tons, 8.4 %
     - Guns: 1,178 tons, 8.4 %
   Armour: 4,831 tons, 34.6 %
     - Belts: 2,657 tons, 19.1 %
     - Armament: 1,144 tons, 8.2 %
     - Armour Deck: 606 tons, 4.3 %
     - Conning Towers: 423 tons, 3.0 %
   Machinery: 1,455 tons, 10.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,036 tons, 36.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,449 tons, 10.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12,876 lbs / 5,840 Kg = 5.0 x 17.7 " / 450 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.68
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.686 / 0.690
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.28 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 67
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -22.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.00 ft / -0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Aft deck:   30.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Quarter deck:   20.00 %, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m, 9.00 ft / 2.74 m
     - Average freeboard:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 73.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 57.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,662 Square feet or 2,012 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 192 lbs/sq ft or 939 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 2.05
      - Overall: 1.05
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Carthaginian · August 28, 2011, 11:05:18 AM

LOL... not a bad ship- 'cept for the fact that you'll be firing a round about every 10 minutes. In the meantime, a more modestly armed ship will have holed your upper belt and put all your secondaries out of action, leaving you with a small floating fort which will be a tempting target for torpedoes. Smaller ships with faster-firing guns will be very difficult targets for your guns to track.

Remember, it's pretty much manual loading all the way at this time... and it takes a lot of sweat and blood to move a one ton shell.

Jefgte · August 28, 2011, 04:17:26 PM

I agree with Cart.
I don't use 2x420mm guns on the Terrible class with 1 shoot every 2 mm(with low hit probability) but 8x240 with 5 guns in the boardside with 1 shoot every 10sec.

Jef ;)

Logi · August 28, 2011, 05:30:35 PM

Since it was 1885, it was a early steel - harvey armor design. Rate on fire is actually 1 round per 2.5 minutes (as done on Malta). Still the guns will wear out the loaders quickly.

8" will cut through ~9" of Harvy Nickel-Steel armor (backed by the usual thickness of teak) @ 1000-1500 yds. Lower than 8" secondaries will not hole the 8" secondaries' armor nor the upper plate.

TBH, the 17.72" wasn't too seriously considered although it is interesting.

The next semi-serious design-

After the realization that the armor carried on the Aragon and Gloria classes cannot be penetrated by the 13.5"/30 (only ~14" of wrought iron armor and only ~11" of Harvey Nickel-Steel), the decision was made to switch to the 15"/32 (13"/35 doesn't yield enough penetration and the longer barrel may prove problematic). (Since you can make 16.25"/30 around this period with some defects, I assume 15"/32 is quite possible).

15"/32, I assume with the 1,500 lb shell will make something similar, if not slightly faster, to the 16.25"/30 gun's 1 round per 2 minute rof. (32 cal is a lot more accurate than 17.72/20.5 I think)

Early Steel Ship - Harvey Armor. Heavier upper belt armor and deck armor. Armored aft conning tower position.

QuoteIAB Lisbon, Iberia Battleship laid down 1885
Central citadel ship

Displacement:
   13,700 t light; 14,450 t standard; 15,226 t normal; 15,848 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (400.00 ft / 400.00 ft) x 73.00 ft x (26.00 / 26.93 ft)
   (121.92 m / 121.92 m) x 22.25 m x (7.92 / 8.21 m)

Armament:
6 - 15.00" / 381 mm 32.0 cal guns - 1,500.00lbs / 680.39kg shells, 60 per gun
     Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1885 Model
     1 x Twin mount on centreline, forward deck centre
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, aft deck centre
6 - 8.00" / 203 mm 40.0 cal guns - 235.96lbs / 107.03kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1885 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck centre
     2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck centre
8 - 6.00" / 152 mm 40.0 cal guns - 99.56lbs / 45.16kg shells, 150 per gun
     Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1885 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
Weight of broadside 11,212 lbs / 5,086 kg

Armour:
- Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Upper:   11.0" / 279 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

- Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      6.00" / 152 mm
   2nd:   8.00" / 203 mm   3.00" / 76 mm        -
   3rd:   5.00" / 127 mm     -           -

- Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.50" / 38 mm
   Forecastle: 1.50" / 38 mm Quarter deck: 1.50" / 38 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 14.20" / 361 mm, Aft 14.20" / 361 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,821 ihp / 5,834 Kw = 15.00 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,398 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   684 - 890

Cost:
   £1.443 million / $5.771 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,504 tons, 9.9 %
     - Guns: 1,504 tons, 9.9 %
   Armour: 5,420 tons, 35.6 %
     - Belts: 3,108 tons, 20.4 %
     - Armament: 1,281 tons, 8.4 %
     - Armour Deck: 656 tons, 4.3 %
     - Conning Towers: 376 tons, 2.5 %
   Machinery: 1,520 tons, 10.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,256 tons, 34.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,526 tons, 10.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13,807 lbs / 6,263 Kg = 8.8 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 2.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 15.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.74
   Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.12

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.702 / 0.705
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 63
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -22.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.00 ft / -0.91 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
     - Forecastle:   20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Forward deck:   30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Aft deck:   30.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Quarter deck:   20.00 %, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m, 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     - Average freeboard:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 65.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 23,445 Square feet or 2,178 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 189 lbs/sq ft or 922 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.93
      - Overall: 1.05
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Tanthalas · August 28, 2011, 06:11:45 PM

HMS Victoria only mounted 2 16.25/30 throwing 1800 pound shells and came in at 11,000 tons standard. I think your trying to hard to build dreadnaught type ships to early. as available tech is going to be determind by what actualy happens in the world im not even sure you will be able to build the guns for her.

Logi · August 28, 2011, 08:02:37 PM

The date of design for the 16.25/30 throwing 1,800 lb shells was about 1885 according to NavWeap.

The reason why Victoria only carried 2 guns is:
1) They only had 11,000 tons to work with (I have 2,700 tons more to spare) - That's roughly 0.42 more composite strength
2) Their speed was higher (0.7 kt at design - 2.5 kt at forced draught)
3) They had more small secondaries and a bunch of torpedoes (which I didn't carry since I considered with doctrine that torpedoes are relatively new and unreliable "toys" of war - probably inertia in the navy caused by the relatively similar ships being built for roughly twenty years)
4) Their deck is just a whole lot thicker (total is 5" - 3.5" of deck armor). I thought having a thick deck was pointless when you decided to have a very heavy belt and upper belt to stop all calibers - the deck doesn't pretty much nothing but splinter control then.

As you can see in the evolution of designs, the emphasize on the navy is focused on armor and firepower, rather than speed. Much of the gains these ship produced are actually just leftover strength resulting from the decision to keep the battleline speed homogeneous.

For example, just going from 15 to 15.7 kt, I lose easily 0.06 composite strength. Going to 16.7 kt (as the Victoria Class succeeding the Admiral class did), I lose 0.15 composite strength. If I did from 15 to 16.7 kt - I would lose a bunch of armor and maybe a 15" turret. Why do that when the rest of the fleet is moving at 15 kt?

The Spanish navy decided that since the ships are supposed to operate closely together anyways (and not do ramming tactics) increasing speed would be a foolish proposition anyways (as if communications between ships aren't hard enough to begin with) so invested in rather the firepower and armor of the ships it built.

Since I am uncertain whether going above 18" of belt Compound or Harvey-Nickel would produce rolling-production problems, I stuck with the 18" belt, and up armed everywhere else to keep up with the generation and increase the gun to penetrate the latest armor.

It really it's not really a dreadnought program when you consider (I guess you can compare it to Valle's design focus in N3):
1) There's not much else to build now but increase caliber length and protection - there's nothing feasible for more firepower (for the period). - In fact to get more penetration, it'll probably go down in caliber to get long calibers without significant flaws.
2) They are in 1885, still going to be at 15 kt speed and slower by almost 3 kts than other competitors. - They probably can't even evade torpedo boats that well due to their slow speed.

IMO I think the speed issue will become only increasingly crippling as the era progresses and the IA holds the speed constant.

---

I think, if a predreadnought is ordered each year (with the 6 year difference between laid and commissioned) the break down becomes in 1886 :

3 x IAB Gloria class (3 in commission)
5 x IAB Aragón class (1 in commission: 4 launched)
2 x IAB Lisbon class ( 2 laid down)

1 pre-dread laid per year compared to the UK's average rate of 2.4 per year and the US's 1.5333- per year (US largely constrained by Congress budget rather than build capacity)

Tanthalas · August 28, 2011, 10:23:45 PM

You realy arnt listening to my most critical point. What we can build at any point will be decided largly by events that happend in the Nverse not OTL. None of us with the exception of the mods will ever even see the extended tech tree so we realy wont know whats possible untill we have our Eureka moment. Your ships are as I stated previously to freking big, I told Valles the same thing.

you have $100.00 (roughly as of last official posting about it) for your startup fleet, this will involve some compromises as each ship will cost a Dollar ammount equal to its standard (atleast I think it was standard) tonage. I realise your trying to build what you want to build, but since I got told to STFU and be a good little drone, im sad to say the same goes for you.

Desertfox · August 28, 2011, 11:39:25 PM

Actually everyone will have between $1,000 - $1,500 to start off with.

Tanthalas · August 28, 2011, 11:47:59 PM

Quote from: Desertfox on August 28, 2011, 11:39:25 PM
Actually everyone will have between $1,000 - $1,500 to start off with.

Yup but we have other things outside our fleets that we will have to spend it on. We will only have about 10% of it available for ships, so im assuming the smaller number and if its the larger well then I get more goodies than I pland on.