Army Take III

[miketr]

Combat Blurb to follow.



Army Units have the following characteristics:

   Combat Rating:   The ability of the unit to do damaged expressed in decimal numbers, EG 2.2

   Unit Strength:   A corps has 100%, a division 50%, a brigade 10% and a fortress citadel count as 5%.  If a unit has taken damage round unit to the nearest fraction 74% intact Corps would count as a division for example.  In gross terms this represents the amount of manpower in a given unit.

   Unit Morale:   Represents the confidence and willingness to fight of a unit.  Reserves have 2.0 moral, Conscripts 3.0, Regulars, 4.0 and fortress troops 5.0 base morale.

   Unit Speed:   Infantry Corps can move 3 provinces a month while Cavalry can move 5 provinces a month.  Specialist light infantry can ignore movement penalties when moving through their terrain type.

   Unit Quality:   There are three unit types available, Regular, Conscript and Reserve.  Regular units are at full war strength all the time and can fight at moment's notice.  Conscript and reserve units have half or all of their unit strength made up of reservists that are only available in time of war.  It takes time to mobilize conscript and reserve units; exactly how long is a function of your Research Establishment.

   Subject to Moderator approval a unit may receive Elite and or Veteran rating; said unit will receive a bonus to its combat rating and it its moral.   

   As in N3 the base unit of the game is the Army Corps.  A formation of 50,000 men for infantry and 15,000 for Cavalry.  Divisions have 25,000 and 7,500 men.  While Brigade are 5,000 and 1,500 men.  A citadel is 2,500 men.  Smaller units are less effective in combat and receive a size penalty, see the combat chart for specific value.

   In peace time a nation can keep no more than 3% of its manpower under arms, the percentage possible increases as new technologies become available through your Army Establishment Research.

   As in N3 there are three types of Army Units.  General Infantry, Cavalry and Specialist Light Infantry.  The specialist light infantry have special movement capabilities in certain type of terrain; mountain, jungle, desert and amphibious.  Light Infantry use the Cavalry Charts for their Unit Strength.  At start of the game there will be NO amphibious light infantry to start.  You may have units called marines or naval infantry if you wish but they have no special abilities.  Once your army and naval research establishment reaches the correct level the Marine Light Infantry unit will be introduced.     
   
   The cost to build and maintain army units can be found on the following two tables.

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2750/armyv2.png
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1430/fortv2.png

   If you wish to upgrade an army unit from one date level to the next you just pay the difference between the two.  The time to build or train a new unit is 3 months and the units then counted as reserve in terms of quality.  After another 3 months the unit will move up to reserve and then after a final 6 months to regular.  Reserve or Conscript units on active duty would move up in quality the same way if on active duty.  The number of units a nation can have in reserve status is a function of their Army Establishment.   To achieve Elite and or Veteran status takes two years and has special conditions, in particular Moderator approval.   

   If a player wishes to they may choose to build equipment and just have sit in a warehouse as an equipment stockpile.  It costs nothing and there are no troops attached to it.  As a result to active an equipment stockpile will take at least 3 months and then you have a formation of reserve quality.  There is no cost in activating stockpile unit beyond having to pay its upkeep; amount will be prorated for the year.   

Digging In: It takes a land unit 3 movements to completely digging in.  One movement provides a 10% defensive bonus, two movements provide a 25% defensive bonus and three movements provide a 50% defensive bonus.  Digging in levels take effect the following week.

If a unit has dug in to any degree it takes one movement to exit the field defenses.

Cavalry are incapable of digging in.

Siege Artillery:  Siege Artillery can only be used vs. dug in units or fortifications.  They have zero combat value in war of movement.  Also if siege artillery unit faces an older generation fort then there will be a combat multiplier.  Modern guns have habit of ripping apart outdated forts very quickly.


Naval Artillery on Land:  When moving naval guns over to land we are going to us a KISS.  Let us say that your land combat tech is 1905 Infantry which costs $27.5 a corps for 5 points of combat power.  Which gives you a 0.18 ratio of combat power to cash.  Now if you have $2 worth of naval artillery to move over AND it is of similar generation then it would get you 0.18 * $2 = 0.36  combat rating worth of Heavy / Rail Artillery.  This is a case of recycling more than anything else IMHO.  You have the guns already from some source and want to do something else with them.

Constables, Depots and Engineers:
   Conquered Territory and Colonies have populations that are inherently hostile to your rule and view you as enemy aliens.  As such you will need to have troops to keep order in such provinces.  For every million people in a hostile province you will need one Corps of troops, infantry or cavalry, to keep order or two brigades of Constables.  A constable unit is best described as a form of military police unit.

When on Enemy territory in time of war your armies will require depot brigades to keep your units in supply.  Units are in supply when on their own territory and with a connection to the capital.  If a unit is cut off from the capital by enemy controlled province the moderators will make a determination as to supply status.  A depot can provide supply to 5 Army Corps one province over.  A supply Chain is a line of Depot Brigades in adjacent provinces going back to a supply source.  Provide their own supply when next to national territory and or when along a coast and the moderators determine if there is a valid line of sea supply.

Units out of supply loose 0.5 to their current moral total and cannot attack but only defend.  Out of supply units do not recover moral as normal.  If units are out of supply for consecutive turns (months) and have zero or negative current moral they will surrender.

To build or repair things such as fortress citadels, ports, railroads or other projects that the moderators so designate require the service of an engineer brigade.  To be actively working on a project requires the engineer to be mobilized.

[Nobody]

It's nice to see that things continue, but...

Before I start criticizing, I have a question: Did you even make a single change that was suggested by the players? Or is the only difference that a few details that had been missing, and an outline of how the combat system works, have been added?

[miketr]

For player comments changes where made but the costs, etc have become fixed and been that way for a bit now.

This is the first thing with hint of mechanics to be displayed for army.  So by all means take some shots at things if want. 

Now I don't have time to get locked into endless arguments over stuff, its a good sign that if I am not responding to something that I am not reading it.  For example I have not read the players economic talk for some time now.

Michael

[Nobody]

The tables are fixed? That's good. I don't really like them, but they are good and should work.

But please, can you change the upgrade costs? (or explain why not)
Paying only for the difference just makes no sense. We should at least have to pay a multiple of difference or something like "upgrade = new - old/2". Otherwise it would be like "We got a new gun with 50% more firepower which cost only 12.5% more. That's great, make sure you get a full refund and we pay the rest."* It also makes - as elsewhere pointed out - investing starting money in armies, rather than ships much more attractive, because the ships will be obsolete very soon while the armies can be kept up to date for a fraction of their price.


*) these are the real numbers for the game start (Army level 1 compared to 2)

[Valles]

Or you could look at it as deliberately not punishing people who are going to be investing in their army anyway, which is something I do appreciate, BTW.

[miketr]

The entire army system is geared towards the following concept.

Its VERY SIMPLE.

Vallas I do not see how you view the current system as a punishment of who want to upgrade?  As you upgrade units the upkeep stays the same and so on a cost and upkeep bases higher grade units become MORE effective in terms of those expenses.  There is every incentive that I can see to upgrade units.

Nobody yes someone could favor their army at the expense of their navy BUT there is a price to pay in doing so. The biggest is that this is to be a naval game and in the mean time you will be limited into what you can do on the high seas. 

I am not locked in stone on the upgrade costs but this is the same system from N3 in effect; IE difference between old level and new level.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php/topic,87.0.html

Does this help?  Does this make more sense?

Michael

[Valles]

Vallas I do not see how you view the current system as a punishment of who want to upgrade?  As you upgrade units the upkeep stays the same and so on a cost and upkeep bases higher grade units become MORE effective in terms of those expenses.  There is every incentive that I can see to upgrade units.

Indeed, that's kind of my point. My feeling, accurate or not, about the N3 system is that no such incentive was present, given the scaling upkeep costs. Since I am going to be building 'land power' as one of the Japanese's core competencies, easier upgrading is something I'm pleased to see.

[Korpen]

Nobody yes someone could favor their army at the expense of their navy BUT there is a price to pay in doing so. The biggest is that this is to be a naval game and in the mean time you will be limited into what you can do on the high seas. 

Somewhat related to what some wrote in the Spanish navy-thread:
I do not quite buy that argument. All countries are not equal in their needs; just looking at European countries countries such as Germany and Austria can afford skip pouring allot of money into ships in the beginning as a small navy can meet their strategic requirements just as well as a huge one and the coastlines are short enough that they can easily be protected by ground forces. Others, such as the Nordic Kingdoms, would suffer economic collapse if costal traffic was interrupted for any longer periods and hence need a larger relative their neighbour's fleet. Given the relative short efficient service that can be expected from warships in this period (5-10 years front-line service) there is a major advantage potential advantage four countries that only need to invest in things that never loose value such as infrastructure and armies.
On infrastructure I for one would like to see a fairly steep increase in cost of huge bases in the start-up to not excessively punish countries such as Mexico that has very long coastlines and hence need more bases just to cover it.

[miketr]

There is no way to make a perfect system to cover all basis.  All systems are going to be subject to MIN-MAXing to one degree or another.  All I can say is if someone wants to avoid doing naval stuff and focus a mass army and their economy that is an option.  At the same time I don't know what the heck they are going to be doing in the game especially as the Mods have said repeatedly that we are not going to allow great wars or wars to destruction. 

As to naval bases there is not difference between building one base that can support 500,000 tons of shipping or ten bases able to each support 50,000 tons.  If you want to get into naval costs, etc please start a separate thread.

Michael

[Nobody]

There are also people - like me - who are worried they won't be able to have a navy at all, because they are surrounded and might have to spend all their money into the army...

Mike, yes it's the same as before. But that's the problem, because the system itself has changed (to the better I think). In the old system, buying a new (entry level) or upgrading an existing unit was the same. Now it would be one new unit or EIGHT upgrades! And I don't think it was a good idea back than either.
If you don't want an upgrade rule that involves multiplication you should not give us that option in the first place.

[Jefgte]

There are also people - like me - who are worried they won't be able to have a navy at all, because they are surrounded and might have to spend all their money into the army...

Like me too...

I suggest to limit the money for Army at about 25 to 30% of the total budget

We are in NAVALISM, not in ARMY...ISM


Jef

[Desertfox]

No limits, I need both a big army and a big navy.

[Carthaginian]

Some nations will need a massive army, some will need a massive navy.
There should be no limits on how much can be spent on either... though I'm becoming a fan on limiting the amount of money that can be spent on the military in general.

[snip]

I see no reason to limit people from shooting themselves in the foot for not building enough infrastructural.

[TexanCowboy]

*stabs snip in the foot*