SS3 Question

[miketr]

I have never bothered to use SS3 so I thought I would give it a try.  Problem is the program clearly needs more data but what it is I don't know.  I have composite strength as NaN, so could people tell me what I forgot to fill in?

Michael

HMS Warrior, UK Broadside Ironclade laid down 1860
Armoured Corvette (Broadside ironclad)

Displacement:
   8,077 t light; 8,584 t standard; 9,056 t normal; 9,434 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (394.37 ft / 380.00 ft) x 58.33 ft x (26.00 / 26.88 ft)
   (120.20 m / 115.82 m) x 17.78 m  x (7.92 / 8.19 m)

Armament:
      4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 14.8 cal guns - 168.09lbs / 76.24kg shells, 150 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in broadside mounts, 1860 Model
     4 x Single mounts layout not set
      28 - 7.00" / 178 mm 15.9 cal guns - 112.90lbs / 51.21kg shells, 150 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in broadside mounts, 1860 Model
     28 x Single mounts layout not set
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm 20.0 cal guns - 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in broadside mounts, 1860 Model
     4 x Single mounts layout not set
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 3,913 lbs / 1,775 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.50" / 114 mm   213.00 ft / 64.92 m   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.50" / 114 mm         -               -
   2nd:   4.50" / 114 mm         -               -
   3rd:   4.50" / 114 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 5,322 ihp / 3,970 Kw = 14.00 kts
   Range 900nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 849 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   463 - 603

Cost:
   £0.586 million / $2.345 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 177 tons, 2.0 %
      - Guns: 177 tons, 2.0 %
   Armour: 1,273 tons, 14.1 %
      - Belts: 944 tons, 10.4 %
      - Armament: 329 tons, 3.6 %
   Machinery: 1,706 tons, 18.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,922 tons, 54.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 979 tons, 10.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     0 lbs / 0 Kg = 0.0 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 0.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): NaN
   Metacentric height NaN ft / NaN m
   Roll period: NaN seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): NaN %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): NaN
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): NaN

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.51 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 33 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Aft deck:   38.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Quarter deck:   12.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 74.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 15,003 Square feet or 1,394 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 171 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 212 lbs/sq ft or 1,034 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: NaN
      - Longitudinal: NaN
      - Overall: NaN
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room

[Walter]

Maybe it has something to do with the "Single mounts layout not set" bit?

[miketr]

OK That was the trick.  Looks reasonable design.

Michael

HMS Warrior, UK Broadside Ironclade laid down 1860
Armoured Corvette (Broadside ironclad)

Displacement:
   8,077 t light; 8,584 t standard; 9,056 t normal; 9,434 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (394.37 ft / 380.00 ft) x 58.33 ft x (26.00 / 26.88 ft)
   (120.20 m / 115.82 m) x 17.78 m  x (7.92 / 8.19 m)

Armament:
      4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 14.8 cal guns - 168.08lbs / 76.24kg shells, 150 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in broadside mounts, 1860 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      28 - 7.00" / 178 mm 15.9 cal guns - 112.90lbs / 51.21kg shells, 150 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in broadside mounts, 1860 Model
     28 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 - 4.00" / 102 mm 20.0 cal guns - 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in broadside mounts, 1860 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 3,913 lbs / 1,775 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.50" / 114 mm   213.00 ft / 64.92 m   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 86 % of normal length

   - Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.50" / 114 mm         -               -
   2nd:   4.50" / 114 mm         -               -
   3rd:   4.50" / 114 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 1.00" / 25 mm
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 5,322 ihp / 3,970 Kw = 14.00 kts
   Range 900nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 849 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   463 - 603

Cost:
   £0.586 million / $2.345 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 177 tons, 2.0 %
      - Guns: 177 tons, 2.0 %
   Armour: 1,553 tons, 17.1 %
      - Belts: 944 tons, 10.4 %
      - Armament: 329 tons, 3.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 280 tons, 3.1 %
   Machinery: 1,706 tons, 18.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,142 tons, 45.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 979 tons, 10.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 5.5 %
      - Hull void weights: 500 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,934 lbs / 3,145 Kg = 49.2 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.63
   Metacentric height 5.0 ft / 1.5 m
   Roll period: 10.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 77 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.54

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.51 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 33 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Aft deck:   38.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Quarter deck:   12.00 %,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m,  12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 74.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 15,003 Square feet or 1,394 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 149 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 179 lbs/sq ft or 873 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.11
      - Longitudinal: 2.31
      - Overall: 1.20
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Guinness]

Yeah, I'm starting to feel pretty good about 1.1/1.05/1.0 overall strength.

[Walter]

Reasonable, but unfortunately wrong. I was wondering why you could get the hull strength to 1.20 while I was struggling to get it at 1.00...

Warrior was laid down in 1859, not 1860 (although that's only a minor change). Warrior's freeboard is also 16 feet and not 12 feet. The 8"/15 cal guns fire 175 lbs shells and the 7"/16 cal guns fire 112 lbs shells and the 20 lbs guns are 3.75"/14.4 cal guns (although all that gun data is according to what wiki indicates). You should also be able to sim it without problems with 26 68 lbs canons, 10 110 lbs canons, and 4 40 lbs canons which was Warrior's original armament (your sim actually suggests that it was armed with the 8", 7" and 20 lbs guns from the beginning). Not sure about the gun armour since simming it with the 22 feet high belt, you're already protecting those guns with the belt and I do not see any indication that Warrior had an armored deck. Also, the sim needs 355 tons for the teak backing.

[Guinness]

Also, the sim needs 355 tons for the teak backing.

I dunno. I'm willing to stipulate that the teak backing is already built in to the "scantlings" of ships by SS3.

[Walter]

What?!? Remember what's mentioned elsewhere: Nothing's free!!! Teak backing should be no exception. ;D
(to be honest, 355 ton is a fairly significant weight; it results in a change of 0.09 HS in the sim below)

Actually, it works better in SS3 than SS2... Not sure about the rigging weight, but it still has 0.09 HS left to add miscellaneous weights where ever necessary. Upper belt used to sim the weight of the teak backing.
Will take a look how it works after the 1867 regunning of the ship...

Warrior, RN Armored ship laid down 1859
Armoured Frigate (Broadside ironclad)

Displacement:
   8,298 t light; 8,808 t standard; 9,282 t normal; 9,660 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (399.82 ft / 390.00 ft) x 58.25 ft x (26.00 / 26.86 ft)
   (121.87 m / 118.87 m) x 17.75 m  x (7.92 / 8.19 m)

Armament:
      26 - 8.12" / 206 mm 14.8 cal guns - 173.35lbs / 78.63kg shells, 100 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in broadside mounts, 1859 Model
     26 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      26 hull mounts on upper deck- Limited use in heavy seas
      10 - 7.00" / 178 mm 14.2 cal guns - 110.01lbs / 49.90kg shells, 100 per gun
     Breech loading guns in broadside mounts, 1859 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 hull mounts on upper deck- Limited use in heavy seas
     2 x Single mounts on sides forward
      4 - 4.75" / 121 mm 20.0 cal guns - 39.99lbs / 18.14kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in broadside mounts, 1859 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 5,767 lbs / 2,616 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.50" / 114 mm   213.00 ft / 64.92 m   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.69" / 43 mm   213.00 ft / 64.92 m   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
     Main Belt covers 84% of normal length

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 5,424 ihp / 4,046 Kw = 14.00 kts
   Range 1,350nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 852 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   472 - 614

Cost:
   £0.631 million / $2.525 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 242 tons, 2.6%
      - Guns: 242 tons, 2.6%
   Armour: 1,301 tons, 14.0%
      - Belts: 1,301 tons, 14.0%
   Machinery: 1,800 tons, 19.4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,755 tons, 51.2%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 984 tons, 10.6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 2.2%
      - Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,574 lbs / 2,982 Kg = 45.9 x 8.1 " / 206 mm shells or 1.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.29
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 13.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.93

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.70 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 32 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00%,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00%,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00%,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00%,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.3%
   Waterplane Area: 15,376 Square feet or 1,429 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 156%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 190 lbs/sq ft or 929 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.17
      - Longitudinal: 3.09
      - Overall: 1.29
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Walter]

The 1867 armament version is something like this...

Warrior, RN Armored ship laid down 1859
Armoured Frigate (Broadside ironclad)

Displacement:
   8,403 t light; 8,808 t standard; 9,282 t normal; 9,660 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (399.82 ft / 390.00 ft) x 58.25 ft x (26.00 / 26.86 ft)
   (121.87 m / 118.87 m) x 17.75 m  x (7.92 / 8.19 m)

Armament:
      28 - 7.00" / 178 mm 16.0 cal guns - 111.99lbs / 50.80kg shells, 100 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in broadside mounts, 1867 Model
     20 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      20 hull mounts on upper deck- Limited use in heavy seas
     8 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 8.00" / 203 mm 15.0 cal guns - 175.00lbs / 79.38kg shells, 100 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in broadside mounts, 1867 Model
     4 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      4 hull mounts on upper deck- Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 3.75" / 95.3 mm 14.4 cal guns - 20.00lbs / 9.07kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in broadside mounts, 1867 Model
     4 x Single mounts on side ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 3,916 lbs / 1,776 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.50" / 114 mm   213.00 ft / 64.92 m   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   1.69" / 43 mm   213.00 ft / 64.92 m   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
     Main Belt covers 84% of normal length

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 5,424 ihp / 4,046 Kw = 14.00 kts
   Range 1,350nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 852 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   472 - 614

Cost:
   £0.616 million / $2.466 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 192 tons, 2.1%
      - Guns: 192 tons, 2.1%
   Armour: 1,301 tons, 14.0%
      - Belts: 1,301 tons, 14.0%
   Machinery: 1,800 tons, 19.4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,911 tons, 52.9%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 879 tons, 9.5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 2.2%
      - Above deck: 200 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,791 lbs / 3,080 Kg = 74.0 x 7.0 " / 178 mm shells or 1.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.28
   Metacentric height 3.5 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 13.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.36
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.92

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.550 / 0.554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.70 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 32 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00%,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00%,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00%,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00%,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m,  16.00 ft / 4.88 m
      - Average freeboard:      16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72.7%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 99.3%
   Waterplane Area: 15,376 Square feet or 1,429 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 161%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 195 lbs/sq ft or 953 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.23
      - Longitudinal: 3.16
      - Overall: 1.36
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Adequate accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[miketr]

The ship has 500 tons of misc weight.

Michael

[Walter]

Nothing of it assigned above deck, meaning that there is 0 tons assigned to the ship's rigging.

[miketr]

Nothing of it assigned above deck, meaning that there is 0 tons assigned to the ship's rigging.

I am not aware of any rules for placing misc weight anyplace at all.  That is still a work in progress. 

Michael

[Walter]

Seems fairly obvious that any rigging should be simmed as "above deck" unless you're suggesting that all the rigging is located below the main deck and that it actually can work there...

[miketr]

Seems fairly obvious that any rigging should be simmed as "above deck" unless you're suggesting that all the rigging is located below the main deck and that it actually can work there...

You are missing the point Walter, no rules means no rules and something built without rules OBVIOUSLY isn't an official design to be used in game. 

As soon as I have some rules to work with I will alter the design.  Especially if its looking like old style ships are to have cross sectional strength of 1.1 and I had a 1.2.   

All I will say is 500 tons of misc weight for rigging sounds... excessive.

Michael 

[Guinness]

I've been crunching the few numbers I can find.

For a fully rigged ship, how does 5% of displacement work? That's 500 tons for a 10,000 ton ship. For HMS Warrior, I get 460 tons for rigging.

This would account for a "fully rigged" ship. A more typical steam cruiser rig might be half, and a "jury rig" might be 1/4.

[Sachmle]

Without solid info on what masts, rigging, sails, tackle, etc weighed it sounds reasonable.