Polish Navy

[Sachmle]

4 - 14.2" / 360 mm, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m torpedoes - 0.111 t each, 0.442 t total
   submerged bow tubes     
2nd Torpedoes
      16 - 14.2" / 360 mm, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m torpedoes - 0.111 t each, 1.769 t total
    submerged side tubes
Jef  ;)

SS3.0b lists the total number of torpedoes, not tubes. Each torpedo weights 0.111t (which is WAY to light even for a 14" torp) for a total of 0.442 in the bow tube and 1.769 for the (proly) 4 side tubes (2 per side)

[Walter]

*looks at SS3b*
... so it does...

I would think that this would cause confusion to those who use SS2 a lot and now are going to use SS3 for N4. Best way to make it more clear is to edit the report to indicate the number of tubes that the ship has so it looks like this (if Sachmle's right about the tube layout)...

4 - 14.2" / 360 mm, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m torpedoes - 0.111 t each, 0.442 t total
   in 1 submerged bow tubes     
2nd Torpedoes
      16 - 14.2" / 360 mm, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m torpedoes - 0.111 t each, 1.769 t total
   in 4 submerged side tubes

[Delta Force]

Well, 18 knots would be considered a good speed for a torpedo boat in this time period.
Most battleships would have speeds of more like 14 knots.
Reducing speed would allow for a far smaller ship with similar capabilities OR would allow for a somewhat smaller ship with greater capabilities.

I know that a general rule of thumb for the dreadnought era was that you had to have about three knots of a speed advantage over another ship before you would see any major benefits in maneuverability or an ability to flee if outmatched. I am not quite sure what kind of speed advantage would be needed in this era to create battlecruiser like advantages seeing as speeds and artillery ranges are much lower.

[Korpen]

Well, 18 knots would be considered a good speed for a torpedo boat in this time period.
Most battleships would have speeds of more like 14 knots.
Reducing speed would allow for a far smaller ship with similar capabilities OR would allow for a somewhat smaller ship with greater capabilities.

I know that a general rule of thumb for the dreadnought era was that you had to have about three knots of a speed advantage over another ship before you would see any major benefits in maneuverability or an ability to flee if outmatched. I am not quite sure what kind of speed advantage would be needed in this era to create battlecruiser like advantages seeing as speeds and artillery ranges are much lower.

I am pretty sure that the rule of thumb is not ~3 knot, but 10-15% more speed at least. So in the dreadnought era that is about three knots., but this early it means that 16kts is enough over a 14kts line.

[Delta Force]

Reducing the speed down to 16 knots allowed for a 3485 ton reduction in weight. I also decided to reclassify the ship as a frigate, as it is powerful enough to serve in the line of battle if needed, but is designed to work independently of the main fleet, similar to the old sailing frigates.

Frigate, Poland Frigate laid down 1876

Displacement:
   8,630 t light; 8,975 t standard; 9,741 t normal; 10,354 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (328.08 ft / 328.08 ft) x 65.62 ft x (26.39 / 27.76 ft)
   (100.00 m / 100.00 m) x 20.00 m  x (8.05 / 8.46 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11.02" / 280 mm 28.0 cal guns - 545.38lbs / 247.38kg shells, 60 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1876 Model
     2 x 2 row twin mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm 28.0 cal guns - 83.84lbs / 38.03kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1876 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 - 3.94" / 100 mm 28.0 cal guns - 24.85lbs / 11.27kg shells, 180 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1876 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 3,287 lbs / 1,491 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      4 - 14.2" / 360 mm, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m torpedoes - 0.118 t each, 0.470 t total
   submerged bow tubes
      2nd Torpedoes
      16 - 14.2" / 360 mm, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m torpedoes - 0.118 t each, 1.882 t total
   submerged side tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   213.25 ft / 65.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   114.83 ft / 35.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   213.25 ft / 65.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.4" / 340 mm   9.45" / 240 mm            -
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -         0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
   Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm  Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11.02" / 280 mm, Aft 11.02" / 280 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 9,760 ihp / 7,281 Kw = 16.58 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,379 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   489 - 637

Cost:
   £0.761 million / $3.044 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 412 tons, 4.2 %
      - Guns: 407 tons, 4.2 %
      - Weapons: 5 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 2,761 tons, 28.3 %
      - Belts: 1,551 tons, 15.9 %
      - Armament: 415 tons, 4.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 578 tons, 5.9 %
      - Conning Towers: 217 tons, 2.2 %
   Machinery: 2,140 tons, 22.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,317 tons, 34.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,111 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,810 lbs / 3,542 Kg = 14.8 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 17.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.37
   Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 12.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.31
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.34

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.606
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.32 ft / 3.76 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 72.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 15,745 Square feet or 1,463 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 114 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 154 lbs/sq ft or 751 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 2.86
      - Overall: 1.10
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Carthaginian]

Delta,

A MUCH better ship here... vastly improved over the original. This vessel is more in line with a ship that can be built in numbers for a fleet. However, it is not a  ship to be built 'in addition to a battleline'- this is a battleline ship, pure and simple!!!

To make this a 'frigate' you will need to:
1.) further sacrifice some size- frigates must be built in fairly large numbers, and a 9,000 ton ship is a large one for this time period. You're wanting to build a fleet of ships like this for independent action, so you need several- and at nearly 10,000 tons, each ship eats up about 10% of your starting tonnage.
2.) sacrifice some armor - since speed is your primary goal, drop about 30mm more belt armor, maybe even 50mm? Reducing the armor will allow you to put more weight into speed at a given tonnage, or to decrease tonnage even further.
3.) drop some torpedo tubes - rapid flooding is a primary reason for the loss of predreadnought ships, and this ship will flood very fast with 20 ready-made holes for water to run in. Reduce the number of torpedo tubes to 4 per side (or even four overall) and you'll have a more survivable ship.

[Sachmle]

3.) drop some torpedo tubes - rapid flooding is a primary reason for the loss of predreadnought ships, and this ship will flood very fast with 20 ready-made holes for water to run in. Reduce the number of torpedo tubes to 4 per side (or even four overall) and you'll have a more survivable ship.

The torpedo thing was discussed earlier, SS3.0b lists total torpedoes, not total tubes. So, IMO, this is 4 fish in 1 bow tube, and 4 fish per beam tube, w/ 2 per side.

[Korpen]

2 x 2 row twin mounts on sides, aft deck forward

Is not a "2 row" mount when the guns are placed one on top of the other rather then side-by-side?

Also, would you not gain more from the upper belt if you moved the secondary down to the battery deck were they would benefit from the protection? It would also reduce clutter on deck, making her a smaller target.

[Delta Force]

2 x 2 row twin mounts on sides, aft deck forward

Is not a "2 row" mount when the guns are placed one on top of the other rather then side-by-side?

Also, would you not gain more from the upper belt if you moved the secondary down to the battery deck were they would benefit from the protection? It would also reduce clutter on deck, making her a smaller target.

I put my secondaries at deck level because I was concerned that they would be unable to fire if casemated below deck. I am not as familar with the needs of ships in the Baltic region, so my secondaries may be higher than they need to be. If they are still useful below deck it would be a great way to make the ship be less visible and better able to sneak around.

[Korpen]

I put my secondaries at deck level because I was concerned that they would be unable to fire if casemated below deck. I am not as familar with the needs of ships in the Baltic region, so my secondaries may be higher than they need to be. If they are still useful below deck it would be a great way to make the ship be less visible and better able to sneak around.

Sneak?? A 10 000 ton is not sneaky, especially not in the shallow waters around the Baltic sea coasts. If the casemates are wet in high sea is a bit irrelevant as pretty much no ship in the period can fight effectively in high seas.
You could also consider cutting the range in half, as 3000nm is quite allot for the Baltic sea as I think you will never be more then 300nm from a own base unless you leave the Baltic, in which case you should consider adding a rigging to the ship.
You could also consider reducing her draft as the Riga gulf is quite shallow and there is a risk that she is restricted to the dredged channels in the Ibre strait for entry and exit.

[Jefgte]

A very strong Frigate...

For France, in 1880, this ship is classed in 2nd class Battleship.


Jef

[Tanthalas]

im not even sure my "battleships" will be that big in 1877...

[Delta Force]

I have managed to further reduce the weight of the ship by reducing armor thickness across the ship. The total reduction in weight is 1,230 tons, and the ship only has to worry about hits from the heaviest guns. The main belt can protect against 10 inch shells at a range of around 1,350 yards, while the upper and end belts can protect against 6 inch shells from a range of around 1,250 yards. Draught is also quite low now, at only 7.75 meters. Battleships with draughts of 8.9 meters fought and operated in Riga Gulf during World War I, so the draught should not be any problem now.

1876 Frigatev2, Poland Frigate laid down 1876

Displacement:
   7,400 t light; 7,722 t standard; 8,423 t normal; 8,983 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (328.08 ft / 328.08 ft) x 59.06 ft x (25.43 / 26.81 ft)
   (100.00 m / 100.00 m) x 18.00 m  x (7.75 / 8.17 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11.02" / 280 mm 28.0 cal guns - 551.16lbs / 250.00kg shells, 60 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1876 Model
     2 x 2 row twin mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm 28.0 cal guns - 88.18lbs / 40.00kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1876 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      12 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas
      4 - 3.94" / 100 mm 28.0 cal guns - 24.80lbs / 11.25kg shells, 180 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1876 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 3,362 lbs / 1,525 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      4 - 14.2" / 360 mm, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m torpedoes - 0.118 t each, 0.470 t total
   submerged bow tubes
      2nd Torpedoes
      16 - 14.2" / 360 mm, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m torpedoes - 0.118 t each, 1.882 t total
   submerged side tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.6" / 270 mm   203.41 ft / 62.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
   Ends:   4.92" / 125 mm   124.67 ft / 38.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
   Upper:   4.92" / 125 mm   203.41 ft / 62.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 95 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.6" / 270 mm   4.92" / 125 mm            -
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -         0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.57" / 40 mm
   Forecastle: 1.57" / 40 mm  Quarter deck: 1.57" / 40 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 4.92" / 125 mm, Aft 4.92" / 125 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 8,655 ihp / 6,457 Kw = 16.50 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,261 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   439 - 571

Cost:
   £0.684 million / $2.736 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 412 tons, 4.9 %
      - Guns: 407 tons, 4.8 %
      - Weapons: 5 tons, 0.1 %
   Armour: 2,173 tons, 25.8 %
      - Belts: 1,358 tons, 16.1 %
      - Armament: 312 tons, 3.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 416 tons, 4.9 %
      - Conning Towers: 88 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,898 tons, 22.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,902 tons, 34.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,023 tons, 12.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 14 tons, 0.2 %
      - Hull below water: 14 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,618 lbs / 3,002 Kg = 12.5 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 14.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.40
   Metacentric height 4.1 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 12.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.40
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.45

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.598 / 0.605
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.56 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -20.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  16.57 ft / 5.05 m,  13.29 ft / 4.05 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  13.29 ft / 4.05 m,  11.65 ft / 3.55 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  11.65 ft / 3.55 m,  11.65 ft / 3.55 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  11.65 ft / 3.55 m,  11.65 ft / 3.55 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.48 ft / 3.81 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 73.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 14,149 Square feet or 1,315 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 145 lbs/sq ft or 709 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 2.81
      - Overall: 1.10
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Sachmle]

I've not looked over the whole thing yet, but I offer this on 1st pass. You still have the main battery set up in 2x2 row twin mounts. 2 row mounts would be with 1 barrel over the other as apposed to side-by-side. To get this, just select twin instead of 2 row twin.

[eltf177]

I've not looked over the whole thing yet, but I offer this on 1st pass. You still have the main battery set up in 2x2 row twin mounts. 2 row mounts would be with 1 barrel over the other as apposed to side-by-side. To get this, just select twin instead of 2 row twin.

I'm still confused on the layout, are these supposed to be beam turrets or in "A" and "Y" positions?