Polish Navy

[Delta Force]

I've decided that I am probably going to play a large Poland, with the ruler being Germanic. Since the fleet is not really vital for anything except for guarding the coastline on internal seas, speed and range won't be a major issue, and ships will be designed more for firepower and survivability. Poland's German allies can handle the high seas. However, the navy will also be somewhat more progressive and innovative than the larger navies of the world, in order to increase prestige for the navy and defend against the Ottomans and the Russians. In addition to that, there will also be political interests in a strong, advanced navy, with the Kaiser and/or the Crown Prince having an interest in naval matters, and industry pushing for a fleet to protect busy coastal shipping and also provide a large market for iron and steel (which should be major interest, with Poland and Ukraine having lots of iron and coal).

This particular battleship is a prime example of the naval strategy, using Krupp breech loading artillery and all steel construction. It is likely to have been made in a German or Austrian shipyard, or at least drawn up with consultation by the leading designers of those nations.

Polish Battleship, Poland Battleship laid down 1875

Displacement:
   10,262 t light; 10,764 t standard; 11,657 t normal; 12,372 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   340.00 ft / 340.00 ft x 80.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   103.63 m / 103.63 m x 24.38 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm guns (2x2 guns), 720.00lbs / 326.59kg shells, 1875 Model
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turrets
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      8 - 10.00" / 254 mm guns in single mounts, 360.00lbs / 163.29kg shells, 1875 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in any sea
   Weight of broadside 5,760 lbs / 2,613 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 80

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   220.00 ft / 67.06 m   16.50 ft / 5.03 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   12.0" / 305 mm            -
   2nd:   7.50" / 191 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.25" / 57 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,635 ihp / 4,950 Kw = 14.50 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,608 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   560 - 729

Cost:
   £1.173 million / $4.692 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 722 tons, 6.2 %
   Armour: 3,624 tons, 31.1 %
      - Belts: 1,668 tons, 14.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,128 tons, 9.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 828 tons, 7.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 1,479 tons, 12.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,436 tons, 38.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,396 tons, 12.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8,543 lbs / 3,875 Kg = 12.8 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 1.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.39
   Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 13.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.16
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 61
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      8.25 ft / 2.51 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   8.25 ft / 2.51 m
      - Mid (50 %):      8.25 ft / 2.51 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8.25 ft / 2.51 m
      - Stern:      8.25 ft / 2.51 m
      - Average freeboard:   8.25 ft / 2.51 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 55.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 19,894 Square feet or 1,848 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 862 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.03
      - Longitudinal: 2.06
      - Overall: 1.10
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[snip]

fine, I will bite...

Point one: Did the mods OK a switch to Poland? Can we get some conformation on this?

Point two: Good luck having those 10" guns fire in any sort of seaway. Hell, the waves generated from moving forward might be enough to swamp the casemates.

Point three: The decision was made to go with SS3, so the design will need to be converted. This might help, as you can now spesify calibers for your guns.

Point four: I think that Nobody would have to agree to the distribution of the Krupp breachloading technology.

Point five: The current rules call for Iron ships as the baseline. While there may be debate to lowering the composite strength penalty for older ships, as things stand right now, this ship would need to have a composite strength of 1.20. Cant storyline your way outside of the rules, no matter how much you want to.

[Delta Force]

fine, I will bite...

Point one: Did the mods OK a switch to Poland? Can we get some conformation on this?

Point two: Good luck having those 10" guns fire in any sort of seaway. Hell, the waves generated from moving forward might be enough to swamp the casemates.

Point three: The decision was made to go with SS3, so the design will need to be converted. This might help, as you can now spesify calibers for your guns.

Point four: I think that Nobody would have to agree to the distribution of the Krupp breachloading technology.

Point five: The current rules call for Iron ships as the baseline. While there may be debate to lowering the composite strength penalty for older ships, as things stand right now, this ship would need to have a composite strength of 1.20. Cant storyline your way outside of the rules, no matter how much you want to.

1. I'll have to ask an Admin to officially approve it. Another player was wondering if I wanted to switch to Poland, and the country would allow for a powerful coastal navy.
2. That is indeed a problem with the design, wanted to get some input on it overall though.
3. That will help me greatly since my larger artillery pieces having been coming in nearly twice the weight they should be, being counted as 45 caliber.
4. I shall ask.
5. I thought it might be possible to make a steel ship in 1875, since the French battleship Redoutable started to use a lot of steel in its design (1872) and the Royal Navy laid down some cruisers in 1875 with all steel construction.

[Tanthalas]

odds are it will come out a 1.20 or better when you open it in SS3, better ask soon on the Nation as I think they are in the process of Finalizing the Map, Id advise placing the 10" guns at deck level but it wouldnt fit with what period germans would have come up with.  You ought to consider like 4X11" and a cluster bunch of 9" if thats what your aiming for.

[Sachmle]

As to OTL analogs, she's in the time frame w/ HMS Devastation and the Russian Piotr Veliky. Both were built by nations that OTL would have much more $$, industry, design, and construction experience than Poland. Granted, this is not OTL, so some of that can be waved. However, you ship is larger and more heavily armed than either, and while you state speed is not important, it's faster too with nearly the range of Devastation. I'd recommend dropping the 10". Devastation had no secondary and Piotr Veliky had 4 6" guns. Both ran around 14kts. For a nation were speed and range aren't important, I'd drop speed to 12-13kts, and cut range to 1,500-2,000nm @ 8-9kts. Your deck seems thick to me since deck hits are nearly impossible, except from plunging fire from a land battery. Since you ship is built for protection not invasion, you could most likely thin it. All these things should help you drop weight. She could be shorter to most likely and definitely thinner.


HMS Devastation (1872) Dimensions: 307' x 62'3" x 26'8" Displacement: 9,330 tons std
Piotr Veliky (1877) Dimensions: 321'6" x 62'4" x 26'3" Displacement: 10,150 tons std

[Tanthalas]

nah Sachmle the deck armor isnt all that bad 2-3" in the late 1870s is fairly common.

[Carthaginian]

This ship is armed and armored like some Japanese battleships of 30 years later. She's a semi-dread monitor... a bit advanced, but an interesting concept.

[TexanCowboy]

Uh...

I don't think you should be designing for a fleet until you get approval to play the nation...

Also, seems a little too advanced....and by little, I mean 20 years.

[Delta Force]

If we are making ships that are pretty much solely for service in the Mediterranean and Adriatic (a coastal battleship), can we make them have somewhat lower hull strength than a conventional battleship? I have a hull strength of 1.10 already, just considering dropping the hull strength to shorten the ship and have it ride lower in the water. Here is the ship in question:

Polish Battleship, Poland Battleship laid down 1870

Displacement:
   6,276 t light; 6,487 t standard; 6,819 t normal; 7,085 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (328.08 ft / 328.08 ft) x 52.49 ft x (21.65 / 22.36 ft)
   (100.00 m / 100.00 m) x 16.00 m  x (6.60 / 6.82 m)

Armament:
      4 - 13.39" / 340 mm 20.0 cal guns - 881.85lbs / 400.00kg shells, 38 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1870 Model
     2 x 2 row twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 3,527 lbs / 1,600 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   9.45" / 240 mm   213.25 ft / 65.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   114.83 ft / 35.00 m   9.84 ft / 3.00 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   9.45" / 240 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
   Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm  Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 7.87" / 200 mm, Aft 7.87" / 200 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 2,483 ihp / 1,852 Kw = 12.00 kts
   Range 2,000nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 598 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   374 - 487

Cost:
   £0.454 million / $1.816 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 333 tons, 4.9 %
      - Guns: 333 tons, 4.9 %
   Armour: 2,315 tons, 34.0 %
      - Belts: 1,121 tons, 16.4 %
      - Armament: 397 tons, 5.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 675 tons, 9.9 %
      - Conning Towers: 122 tons, 1.8 %
   Machinery: 608 tons, 8.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,019 tons, 44.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 543 tons, 8.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,837 lbs / 3,555 Kg = 9.3 x 13.4 " / 340 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.22
   Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 13.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.57
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.640 / 0.644
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.25 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.11 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 31 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  9.84 ft / 3.00 m,  8.20 ft / 2.50 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  8.20 ft / 2.50 m,  8.20 ft / 2.50 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  8.20 ft / 2.50 m,  8.20 ft / 2.50 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.04 ft / 2.76 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 49.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 57.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 13,073 Square feet or 1,214 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 138 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 169 lbs/sq ft or 825 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.02
      - Longitudinal: 2.03
      - Overall: 1.10
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room

[Delta Force]

The ship is essentially an Italia class battleship crossed with a battlecruiser. The armament is not as great as on the Italias, but the ships carry armored cruiser levels of armor in exchange to enable protection against anything up to battleship guns. If it does face a battleship it can of course flee. Such qualitative advantages are required to enable the Polish navy to choose when it wants to fight, as the Baltic is crowded with many rivals and potential enemies, creating the potential for the navy to be greatly outnumbered. I am not as familiar with the 1880s period as I am with World War I, so input on the design is greatly appreciated.

Fast Battleship, Poland Battleship laid down 1875

Displacement:
   12,115 t light; 12,541 t standard; 13,587 t normal; 14,425 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (393.70 ft / 393.70 ft) x 72.18 ft x (27.89 / 29.30 ft)
   (120.00 m / 120.00 m) x 22.00 m  x (8.50 / 8.93 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11.02" / 280 mm 35.0 cal guns - 551.16lbs / 250.00kg shells, 60 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1875 Model
     2 x 2 row twin mounts on sides, aft deck forward
      12 - 5.91" / 150 mm 35.0 cal guns - 88.18lbs / 40.00kg shells, 120 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1875 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      4 - 3.94" / 100 mm 35.0 cal guns - 25.35lbs / 11.50kg shells, 180 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1875 Model
     4 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 3,364 lbs / 1,526 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      4 - 14.2" / 360 mm, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m torpedoes - 0.111 t each, 0.442 t total
   submerged bow tubes
      2nd Torpedoes
      16 - 14.2" / 360 mm, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m torpedoes - 0.111 t each, 1.769 t total
   submerged side tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   255.91 ft / 78.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   137.80 ft / 42.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   255.91 ft / 78.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.4" / 340 mm   9.45" / 240 mm            -
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -         0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 2.95" / 75 mm
   Forecastle: 2.95" / 75 mm  Quarter deck: 2.95" / 75 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 11.02" / 280 mm, Aft 11.02" / 280 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 15,561 ihp / 11,608 Kw = 18.01 kts
   Range 2,100nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,884 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   629 - 818

Cost:
   £1.112 million / $4.447 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 520 tons, 3.8 %
      - Guns: 516 tons, 3.8 %
      - Weapons: 4 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 3,667 tons, 27.0 %
      - Belts: 1,837 tons, 13.5 %
      - Armament: 415 tons, 3.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,145 tons, 8.4 %
      - Conning Towers: 270 tons, 2.0 %
   Machinery: 3,470 tons, 25.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,458 tons, 32.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,472 tons, 10.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,645 lbs / 4,375 Kg = 18.6 x 11.0 " / 280 mm shells or 19.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.41
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 12.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.20
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.28

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.600 / 0.606
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.45 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.84 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 55
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  16.40 ft / 5.00 m,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  13.12 ft / 4.00 m,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m,  11.48 ft / 3.50 m
      - Average freeboard:      12.32 ft / 3.76 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 98.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 74.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,785 Square feet or 1,931 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 782 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.02
      - Longitudinal: 2.06
      - Overall: 1.10
   Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Jefgte]

IMO,
-  35.0 cal guns in 1875 is too much.
Reduce to 28 is better.

-  16 submerged TT !!!
I think, too much for this new arm system.


Jef  ;)

[Tanthalas]

IMO,
-  35.0 cal guns in 1875 is too much.
Reduce to 28 is better.

-  16 submerged TT !!!
I think, too much for this new arm system.


Jef  ;)

28 is about just right,  Im using 27.5 on my 1874 11" guns proly about the same on the 5.91"

[eltf177]

-  16 submerged TT !!!
I think, too much for this new arm system.

Jef  ;)

I got the impression it was 4 submerged TT's with a total of 16 torpedoes. Or am I reading this wrong?

[Jefgte]

 4 - 14.2" / 360 mm, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m torpedoes - 0.111 t each, 0.442 t total
   submerged bow tubes     
2nd Torpedoes
      16 - 14.2" / 360 mm, 14.44 ft / 4.40 m torpedoes - 0.111 t each, 1.769 t total
    submerged side tubes


Jef  ;)

[Carthaginian]

Well, 18 knots would be considered a good speed for a torpedo boat in this time period.
Most battleships would have speeds of more like 14 knots.
Reducing speed would allow for a far smaller ship with similar capabilities OR would allow for a somewhat smaller ship with greater capabilities.