Ship Design Guideline Test Ships

[Guinness]

I'm starting an effort to sim some period ships just to get a feel if some ship design elements work or not; particularly minimum required overall strength. First cust: a not particularly good sim of HMS Colossus (of the early 1880s). The extremely thick armor is layered iron armor. It could probably be thinner, but I'm without any reference better than DK Brown on this.

HMS Colossus, Great Britain Battleship laid down 1879
Armoured Corvette (Broadside ironclad)

Displacement:
   8,581 t light; 8,952 t standard; 9,420 t normal; 9,795 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (341.00 ft / 325.00 ft) x 68.00 ft x (25.75 / 26.58 ft)
   (103.94 m / 99.06 m) x 20.73 m  x (7.85 / 8.10 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 25.3 cal guns - 714.01lbs / 323.87kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1879 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
      4 - 6.00" / 152 mm 25.5 cal guns - 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in broadside mounts, 1879 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      1 - 6.00" / 152 mm 25.5 cal gun - 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1879 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      Weight of broadside 3,356 lbs / 1,522 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      4 - 14.0" / 356 mm, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m torpedoes - 0.122 t each, 0.489 t total
   In 4 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   108.00 ft / 32.92 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 51 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   14.0" / 356 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2.50" / 64 mm  Quarter deck: 2.50" / 64 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 14.00" / 356 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,421 ihp / 5,536 Kw = 15.63 kts
   Range 2,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 843 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   477 - 621

Cost:
   £0.680 million / $2.721 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 318 tons, 3.4 %
      - Guns: 317 tons, 3.4 %
      - Weapons: 1 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 2,403 tons, 25.5 %
      - Belts: 899 tons, 9.5 %
      - Armament: 510 tons, 5.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 860 tons, 9.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 135 tons, 1.4 %
   Machinery: 1,555 tons, 16.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,606 tons, 38.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 839 tons, 8.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 700 tons, 7.4 %
      - Hull below water: 200 tons
      - Hull void weights: 400 tons
      - Hull above water: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,276 lbs / 4,208 Kg = 12.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 21.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.49
   Metacentric height 5.6 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 12.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.20
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.17

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.579 / 0.584
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.03 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 74.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 56.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 15,854 Square feet or 1,473 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 121 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 171 lbs/sq ft or 837 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.11
      - Longitudinal: 2.75
      - Overall: 1.21
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room

EDIT: found a better reference, so this has been tweaked a bit.

[miketr]

Reading Conways All the Worlds Fighting Ships 1860-1905 and Birth of the Battleship: British Capital Ship Design 1870-1881 (John Beeler) it think its clear we need to rethink PDN's.

1) They should have low freeboard, which this design has 8' isn't much

2) Colossus was noted in Conways as being a terrible gunnery platform in a seaway. 

3) Ships before Colossus were noted to have stability problems.

In short PDN's should be wet ships, poor gunnery platforms, with low margin of stability and or bad sea boats.

The loss of HMS Victoria was caused in part by stability problems caused by overloading of the ship.

Michael

 

[Tanthalas]

This is what I got working on HMS Colingwood (the First 1880 admiral class) I atempted to keep as close as I could on everything

HMS Collingwood, Great Britain Battleship laid down 1880
Barbette ship

Displacement:
   8,481 t light; 8,840 t standard; 9,500 t normal; 10,028 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (325.00 ft / 325.00 ft) x 68.00 ft x (26.25 / 27.42 ft)
   (99.06 m / 99.06 m) x 20.73 m  x (8.00 / 8.36 m)

Armament:
      4 - 11.00" / 279 mm 25.0 cal guns - 714.01lbs / 323.87kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in open barbette mounts, 1880 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      6 - 6.00" / 152 mm 25.0 cal guns - 80.00lbs / 36.29kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1880 Model
     6 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm 40.0 cal guns - 3.31lbs / 1.50kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1880 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      8 raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 3,363 lbs / 1,525 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   199.00 ft / 60.66 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   7.00" / 178 mm   126.00 ft / 38.40 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Upper:   14.0" / 356 mm   199.00 ft / 60.66 m   4.00 ft / 1.22 m
     Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:         -            -         11.5" / 292 mm
   2nd:   2.00" / 51 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 12.00" / 305 mm, Aft 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,600 ihp / 7,162 Kw = 16.73 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,188 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   480 - 625

Cost:
   £0.671 million / $2.684 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 267 tons, 2.8 %
      - Guns: 267 tons, 2.8 %
   Armour: 3,605 tons, 37.9 %
      - Belts: 2,238 tons, 23.6 %
      - Armament: 404 tons, 4.3 %
      - Armour Deck: 817 tons, 8.6 %
      - Conning Towers: 145 tons, 1.5 %
   Machinery: 1,984 tons, 20.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,625 tons, 27.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,019 tons, 10.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8,456 lbs / 3,835 Kg = 14.9 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.34
   Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 13.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.17
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.573 / 0.579
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.03 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 70
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   21.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Aft deck:   31.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarter deck:   18.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 56.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 15,762 Square feet or 1,464 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 128 lbs/sq ft or 623 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 2.06
      - Overall: 1.01
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Carthaginian]

In short PDN's should be wet ships, poor gunnery platforms, with low margin of stability and or bad sea boats.

This is quite untrue, as many of the ships in Conway's are noted as having been 'good seaboats' or 'handy.' Even the H.M.S. Conqueror was noted as being handy and a good steamer in calm waters- which is all that can be expected of a ship with what appears to be all of 4 feet of freeboard. Your example of the H.M.S. Victoria is somewhat cruel, as she was regarded as a good steamer, if wet forward due to the low freeboard and heavy 16.25" gun turret. H.M.S. Royal Sovereign and her SIX sisters were regarded as excellent gunnery platforms with good even rolls- after the addition of bilge keels- and excellent seaboats due to their high freeboard. H.M.S. Renown was an excellent steamer and handled well while maneuvering.

The problem is not that we are 'over-simming' pre-dreadnoughts... the problem is that people are thinking that pre-dreadnoughts should not be wet, and should not have low freeboards. Most of all, people are forgetting that pre-dreadnoughts were not- as a rule- intended for fighting battles on the high seas. Ships of this era were meant for fighting over contested seaways- generally close to land. The cruisers that were intended to fight on the high seas show an entirely different design- higher freeboards, ranges of more than about 3000 n. mi. and high speed.

[miketr]

In short PDN's should be wet ships, poor gunnery platforms, with low margin of stability and or bad sea boats.

This is quite untrue, as many of the ships in Conway's are noted as having been 'good seaboats' or 'handy.' Even the H.M.S. Conqueror was noted as being handy and a good steamer in calm waters- which is all that can be expected of a ship with what appears to be all of 4 feet of freeboard.

Sorry its a poor sea boat, that it was a coast defense turret ram is beside the point.  Other PDNs of that era even the sea going ones had problems.

Your example of the H.M.S. Victoria is somewhat cruel, as she was regarded as a good steamer, if wet forward due to the low freeboard and heavy 16.25" gun turret.

That turret also effected the ships stability and contributed to her fast sinking. 

H.M.S. Royal Sovereign and her SIX sisters were regarded as excellent gunnery platforms with good even rolls- after the addition of bilge keels- and excellent seaboats due to their high freeboard. H.M.S. Renown was an excellent steamer and handled well while maneuvering.

Also they are 1890 designs and big advance if an evolutionary one form the Admiral class.   

The problem is not that we are 'over-simming' pre-dreadnoughts... the problem is that people are thinking that pre-dreadnoughts should not be wet, and should not have low freeboards. Most of all, people are forgetting that pre-dreadnoughts were not- as a rule- intended for fighting battles on the high seas. Ships of this era were meant for fighting over contested seaways- generally close to land. The cruisers that were intended to fight on the high seas show an entirely different design- higher freeboards, ranges of more than about 3000 n. mi. and high speed.

You just rephrased my point here.

Michael

[Carthaginian]

You just rephrased my point here.

No, I did not.
I stated that these ships had the exact opposite qualities you suggest, got the information from the same source you got say you got yours form, and completely contest your point.

Pre-dreadnoughts are SMALLER SHIPS in general than their later counterparts.
Smaller ships can have all sorts of excellent qualities... but they DEGRADE FASTER than those of larger ships. In fact, when I bring up the larger pre-dreadnoughts, you retract your criticism and state they are 'evolutionary designs' and should not be considered.

In  short:
You claim they are poor at everything generally.
I say they are excellent in their element.

Victoria, Great Britain Battleship Ram laid down 1885
Armoured Casemate Ship

Displacement:
   8,592 t light; 9,133 t standard; 10,470 t normal; 11,540 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (363.00 ft / 340.00 ft) x 70.00 ft x (26.75 / 28.95 ft)
   (110.64 m / 103.63 m) x 21.34 m  x (8.15 / 8.82 m)

Armament:
      2 - 16.25" / 413 mm 30.0 cal guns - 1,800.00lbs / 816.47kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mount, 1885 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck forward
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm 35.0 cal guns - 80.00lbs / 36.29kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading guns in broadside mounts, 1885 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
      1 - 10.00" / 254 mm 35.0 cal gun - 450.01lbs / 204.12kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck and hoist mount, 1885 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      12 - 2.25" / 57.2 mm 40.0 cal guns - 6.00lbs / 2.72kg shells, 500 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1885 Model
     12 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread
      12 raised mounts
      9 - 1.75" / 44.5 mm 45.0 cal guns - 3.00lbs / 1.36kg shells, 500 per gun
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1885 Model
     9 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 5,109 lbs / 2,317 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      2 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m torpedoes - 0.419 t each, 0.838 t total
   submerged side tubes
      2nd Torpedoes
      2 - 18.0" / 457 mm, 19.00 ft / 5.79 m torpedoes - 0.419 t each, 0.838 t total
   submerged bow & stern tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   178.00 ft / 54.25 m   8.50 ft / 2.59 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   18.0" / 457 mm     60.00 ft / 18.29 m   6.00 ft / 1.83 m
     Main Belt covers 81 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   17.0" / 432 mm   6.00" / 152 mm            -
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm   3.00" / 76 mm            -
   3rd:   3.00" / 76 mm         -         3.00" / 76 mm

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 2.00" / 51 mm
   Forecastle: 2.00" / 51 mm  Quarter deck: 2.00" / 51 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 14.00" / 356 mm, Aft 2.00" / 51 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8,298 ihp / 6,190 Kw = 16.13 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,406 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   516 - 672

Cost:
   £0.843 million / $3.372 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 731 tons, 7.0 %
      - Guns: 728 tons, 7.0 %
      - Weapons: 3 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 3,129 tons, 29.9 %
      - Belts: 1,833 tons, 17.5 %
      - Armament: 496 tons, 4.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 635 tons, 6.1 %
      - Conning Towers: 165 tons, 1.6 %
   Machinery: 1,613 tons, 15.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,119 tons, 29.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,878 tons, 17.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,388 lbs / 4,259 Kg = 4.7 x 16.3 " / 413 mm shells or 6.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.27
   Metacentric height 4.5 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 13.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.28
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.576 / 0.586
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.86 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.44 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 69
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  8.00 ft / 2.44 m,  8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Forward deck:   20.00 %,  8.00 ft / 2.44 m,  8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Aft deck:   45.00 %,  8.00 ft / 2.44 m,  8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  8.00 ft / 2.44 m,  8.00 ft / 2.44 m
      - Average freeboard:      8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 79.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 50.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,013 Square feet or 1,581 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 151 lbs/sq ft or 735 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.28
      - Overall: 1.01
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Guinness]

Here's what I'm trying to determine, and I'm happy for some help: whether or not our planned 1.2 overall strength rule for ships built approx. between 1880 and 1890 works, and beyond that whether 1.1 works for ships built approx. between 1890 and 1900.

For Colossus, it seemed like it does, but that's just one historical ship simmed. Also, Colossus was actually built of steel (which I didn't realize when I started that last night). We had in mind requiring 1.2 for iron ships, 1.1 for early steel ships.

[miketr]

You just rephrased my point here.

No, I did not.
I stated that these ships had the exact opposite qualities you suggest, got the information from the same source you got say you got yours form, and completely contest your point.

No it doesn't...

See page 6, the last paragraph of the Barnaby Era.    What conclusion is made of ships of ships of that era (Sans Pareil) in regards to firing their guns in a sea way?

Pre-dreadnoughts are SMALLER SHIPS in general than their later counterparts.
Smaller ships can have all sorts of excellent qualities... but they DEGRADE FASTER than those of larger ships. In fact, when I bring up the larger pre-dreadnoughts, you retract your criticism and state they are 'evolutionary designs' and should not be considered.

Do you think its reasonable to look at ships with a construction date of 1890 as examples for ships we will be building at start of the sim?  Should we look at them for whats in the fleets to start with?

My point stands.

In  short:
You claim they are poor at everything generally.
I say they are excellent in their element.

UGH....  I am sorry everything is relative and compared to what came later they sucked for many reasons not the least of which was lack of design experience we are not going to be building ships of the White Era for some time.  Even then such ships look worse when compared to what follows later.  When you are doing a game that is going to cover ships from 1860-19XX you need to make such comparisons. 

Were the ships built at X time period the best that could be built at the moment?  Yes / No / Sort of.  Few ships are maximal designs, they are often a compromise of logistics, politics and technology of the day. 

If you can find Birth of the Battleship it has a number of insights on this concept of relativity.


Look lets rewind here a bit.  We are going to have ships build in the 1860's and 1870's as the core of fleets to start the game with.  They are going to be around, even in secondary service for a number of years.  Then we need to worry about ships like the Admiral Class and later the Royal Sovereigns, each bigger and better than what came before it.  Step by step evolution and looking at ships of later eras and design standards can cause problems.  Does this make sense.

Michael 

[Walter]

Guinness, if I read it correctly in the British BB book, the main belt height is not 8 feet but 16 feet (6'6" below the water to the main deck height of 9'6"; also the cross-section clearly indicates that the armor is two decks high). While weight-wise your armor is a mere 10 tons off the 2414 tons given in the book, for it to be a proper sim of the Colossus, the belt should be 2 decks high. The citadel thickness is given as 14"-18" although the book does not exactly indicate where those thicknesses are in the citadel...

Also, applying KISS, I would assume the citadel to be box-shaped and use the given 123 feet citadel length for the sim (read: "I'm too lazy to grab a ruler and make exact calculations of how long the main belt would be if it were box-shaped instead of the broad oval shaped one that was really used on Colossus").

[Guinness]

This is data I didn't have at hand, so I'll update my SS and see how it comes out.

[Guinness]

Walter: do you have what the bunkerage was too?

[Walter]

The book gives "850/950 tons". It could mean 850 tons at normal displacement and 950 tons at full load but that's speculation on my part. With the majority of ships I have simmed so far, I have been using the indicated coal tonnage to determine the range if I could not find a given range.

[Guinness]

Revised Sim: armor+hull weights seem to agree with the references I can find. Total bunkerage is bunkerage + void space misc. weight, and I think is close enough. I also added a number of 4 barrel Nordenfeldt guns. Note that I advanced engine year slightly, but I suspect that this was actually about right, given the state of British engineering practice relative to the average in this era.

We need more examples, but this one casts doubt on the use of additional overall strength to sim older ships.

HMS Colossus, Great Britain Battleship laid down 1879 (Engine 1882)
Armoured Corvette (Broadside ironclad)

Displacement:
   8,663 t light; 9,031 t standard; 9,420 t normal; 9,732 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (337.00 ft / 325.00 ft) x 68.00 ft x (25.75 / 26.44 ft)
   (102.72 m / 99.06 m) x 20.73 m  x (7.85 / 8.06 m)

Armament:
      4 - 12.00" / 305 mm 25.3 cal guns - 714.01lbs / 323.87kg shells, 80 per gun
     Breech loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1883 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on sides amidships
      4 - 6.00" / 152 mm 25.5 cal guns - 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 150 per gun
     Breech loading guns in broadside mounts, 1882 Model
     4 x Twin mounts on sides, evenly spread
      1 - 6.00" / 152 mm 25.5 cal gun - 100.00lbs / 45.36kg shells, 200 per gun
     Breech loading gun in deck mount, 1879 Model
     1 x Single mount on centreline, aft deck aft
      32 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm 35.0 cal guns - 0.44lbs / 0.20kg shells, 1,000 per gun
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1883 Model
     8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
      Weight of broadside 3,370 lbs / 1,529 kg
      Main Torpedoes
      2 - 14.0" / 356 mm, 14.00 ft / 4.27 m torpedoes - 0.130 t each, 0.259 t total
   In 2 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes
      2nd Torpedoes
      7 - 14.0" / 356 mm, 0.00 ft / 0.00 m torpedoes - 0.000 t each, 0.000 t total
   below water reloads

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   123.00 ft / 37.49 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 58 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Hull void:
      0.00" / 0 mm     0.00 ft / 0.00 m   0.00 ft / 0.00 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   14.0" / 356 mm            -

   - Protected deck - single deck:
   For and Aft decks: 3.00" / 76 mm
   Forecastle: 2.50" / 64 mm  Quarter deck: 2.50" / 64 mm

   - Conning towers: Forward 14.00" / 356 mm, Aft 0.00" / 0 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 7,221 ihp / 5,387 Kw = 15.63 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 8.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 701 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   477 - 621

Cost:
   £0.676 million / $2.703 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 331 tons, 3.5 %
      - Guns: 330 tons, 3.5 %
      - Weapons: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 3,448 tons, 36.6 %
      - Belts: 1,944 tons, 20.6 %
      - Armament: 510 tons, 5.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 860 tons, 9.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 135 tons, 1.4 %
   Machinery: 1,453 tons, 15.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,931 tons, 31.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 757 tons, 8.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 5.3 %
      - Hull below water: 200 tons
      - Hull void weights: 200 tons
      - Hull above water: 100 tons

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,350 lbs / 4,241 Kg = 13.0 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 21.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.41
   Metacentric height 5.1 ft / 1.6 m
   Roll period: 12.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 59 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.21
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.19

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a ram bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.579 / 0.583
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.78 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.03 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00 %,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m,  9.00 ft / 2.74 m
      - Average freeboard:      9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 71.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 56.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 15,854 Square feet or 1,473 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 141 lbs/sq ft or 687 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.26
      - Overall: 1.00
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Cramped accommodation and workspace room

[Carthaginian]

See page 6, the last paragraph of the Barnaby Era. What conclusion is made of ships of ships of that era (Sans Pareil) in regards to firing their guns in a sea way?

They weren't really designed to fight in a seaway.
They were designed in a navy where turret ships were never intended to fight outside of coastal environments. They were- in principle- a mobile gun battery designed to be large enough to sail from coastal area to coastal area, participate in a battle when they arrive, then return to the motherland for repairs. Hell, combat in inclement weather is still a relatively new concept at this time... it's something that a fleet of sail-only vessels could never really dream of, and something that designers didn't consider when designing a new ship.
Ships that come along much later were designed with fighting on the open sea, and are therefore designed as more suitable to such a purpose.

In  short:
You claim they are poor at everything generally.
I say they are excellent in their element.

When you are doing a game that is going to cover ships from 1860-19XX you need to make such comparisons.

Only when you are comparing them to another era; when comparing them to ships of their own era, they may be 'good sea boats' and 'stable gunnery platforms'- even if they are actually wetter, less stable and worse than what comes later... which is where the comparison in the book are coming from. So, in terms of Springsharp, we need not have any kinds of warnings... if fact, according to Springsharp, we can have good stability and gunnery ratings.

Look lets rewind here a bit.  We are going to have ships build in the 1860's and 1870's as the core of fleets to start the game with.  They are going to be around, even in secondary service for a number of years.  Then we need to worry about ships like the Admiral Class and later the Royal Sovereigns, each bigger and better than what came before it.  Step by step evolution and looking at ships of later eras and design standards can cause problems.  Does this make sense.

Even these ships will, according to Springsharp, have the characteristics of being good seaboats and stable gunnery platforms, Mike.
WHY?
Because Springsharp takes into account the 'relativity' in designing when assigning such status. It doesn't say 'compared to ships of a later era, this is a poor seaboat'; it essentially says 'compared to another ship of equal dimensions, this is a good seaboat.' During each era this is going to be an issue; we've heard this broken record during discussions regarding ships during N3- especially regarding destroyers.


I think you are making a broad, sweeping generalization covering naval combat in general, and I am looking more specifically at ships of a given time and place.

[Walter]

This is what I got with the Cerberus data.  :o
Upper belt used to sim the armored breastwork.

HMVS Cerberus, Great Brittain Breastwork Monitor laid down 1867

Displacement:
   3,106 t light; 3,247 t standard; 3,363 t normal; 3,456 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (225.00 ft / 225.00 ft) x 45.00 ft x (15.50 / 15.88 ft)
   (68.58 m / 68.58 m) x 13.72 m  x (4.72 / 4.84 m)

Armament:
      4 - 10.00" / 254 mm 14.6 cal guns - 400.01lbs / 181.44kg shells, 80 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1867 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 raised mounts
      2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm 15.0 cal guns - 11.99lbs / 5.44kg shells, 150 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts, 1867 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 1,624 lbs / 737 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   113.00 ft / 34.44 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   112.00 ft / 34.14 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   113.00 ft / 34.44 m   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
     Main Belt covers 77% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   9.00" / 229 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.50" / 38 mm
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 868 ihp / 648 Kw = 9.75 kts
   Range 1,700nm at 6.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 209 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   220 - 287

Cost:
   £0.185 million / $0.738 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 103 tons, 3.1%
      - Guns: 103 tons, 3.1%
   Armour: 1,350 tons, 40.1%
      - Belts: 879 tons, 26.1%
      - Armament: 249 tons, 7.4%
      - Armour Deck: 222 tons, 6.6%
   Machinery: 228 tons, 6.8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,425 tons, 42.4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 256 tons, 7.6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,453 lbs / 1,113 Kg = 7.5 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.00
   Metacentric height 1.5 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 15.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 14 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.13

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.750 / 0.752
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 35 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 29
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00%,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00%,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00%,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00%,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m
      - Average freeboard:      3.50 ft / 1.07 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 36.6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 25.7%
   Waterplane Area: 8,481 Square feet or 788 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 151%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 685 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.62
      - Longitudinal: 1.17
      - Overall: 0.66
   Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room
   Ship has quick, lively roll, not a steady gun platform
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability


Alternatively cheating a bit by ignoring the fact that those 10" guns are raised...

HMVS Cerberus, Great Brittain Breastwork Monitor laid down 1867

Displacement:
   3,106 t light; 3,247 t standard; 3,363 t normal; 3,456 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
   (225.00 ft / 225.00 ft) x 45.00 ft x (15.50 / 15.88 ft)
   (68.58 m / 68.58 m) x 13.72 m  x (4.72 / 4.84 m)

Armament:
      4 - 10.00" / 254 mm 14.6 cal guns - 400.01lbs / 181.44kg shells, 80 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turret mounts, 1867 Model
     2 x Twin mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm 15.0 cal guns - 11.99lbs / 5.44kg shells, 150 per gun
     Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts, 1867 Model
     2 x Single mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread
      2 double raised mounts
      Weight of broadside 1,624 lbs / 737 kg

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   8.00" / 203 mm   113.00 ft / 34.44 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Ends:   6.00" / 152 mm   112.00 ft / 34.14 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
   Upper:   8.00" / 203 mm   113.00 ft / 34.44 m   7.00 ft / 2.13 m
     Main Belt covers 77% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   9.00" / 229 mm            -

   - Armoured deck - multiple decks:
   For and Aft decks: 1.50" / 38 mm
   Forecastle: 1.00" / 25 mm  Quarter deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 868 ihp / 648 Kw = 9.75 kts
   Range 1,700nm at 6.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 209 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   220 - 287

Cost:
   £0.185 million / $0.738 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 103 tons, 3.1%
      - Guns: 103 tons, 3.1%
   Armour: 1,350 tons, 40.1%
      - Belts: 879 tons, 26.1%
      - Armament: 249 tons, 7.4%
      - Armour Deck: 222 tons, 6.6%
   Machinery: 228 tons, 6.8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,425 tons, 42.4%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 256 tons, 7.6%
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     3,852 lbs / 1,747 Kg = 11.8 x 10.0 " / 254 mm shells or 2.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.05
   Metacentric height 1.7 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 14.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.57

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck,
     a normal bow and a cruiser stern
   Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.750 / 0.752
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 15.00 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 35 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 88
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
            Fore end,    Aft end
      - Forecastle:   20.00%,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m
      - Forward deck:   30.00%,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m
      - Aft deck:   35.00%,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m
      - Quarter deck:   15.00%,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m,  3.50 ft / 1.07 m
      - Average freeboard:      3.50 ft / 1.07 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 36.6%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 25.7%
   Waterplane Area: 8,481 Square feet or 788 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 151%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 140 lbs/sq ft or 685 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.14
      - Longitudinal: 1.43
      - Overall: 1.17
   Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space
   Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability