Rules (Draft)

[Tanthalas]

How is the old Jane's system handled?  Are we taking about how to make the guns, or just the break off points or specific techs?

I think its more of a tech thing Ithekro, as I said id just as soon use the old sheat as anything.

[Nobody]

I'm with Texan on that one here.
Ithekro, could you explain the Jane's system?

Instead of BiGun, we could also use my program (see this threat). Admittedly its not very user friendly as it is now, and requires some basic understanding, but in can create any gun you like and calculate its range quite precise. If used I could modify it to adjust it using the rules, which should make it simple enough to handle without knowledge besides the rules.

NAaB is only useful for calculating penetration. Its best used as a GUI version of an outdated FaceHard.

[Ithekro]

I wasn't sure what the topic was about but Jane's Fighting Ships in 1898 has a system of sorts ot split up guns by muzzle energy in foot tons (or enegie metre-ton dinamodi).

A = > circa 20,000 (> circa 6,000)
B = 14,000 - 20,000 (4,300 - 6,000)
C = 6,000 - 14,000 (1,850 - 4,300)
D = 2,000 - 6,000 (600 - 1,850)
E = 800 - 2,000 (250 - 600)
Z = 500 - 800 (150 - 250)
* = quick fire guns (small quick fire guns have only a number and no letter) - added after the letter if the gun is a quickfire.

(EZ a gun that was borderline E and Z when the Z is used for old 15" smoothbores for that country....example= USA 4 in guns are EZ because USA's Z was 15" smoothbores mounted on their remaining 1860s monitors)

Jane's Fighting Ships 1898 had a system for armor as well....also had a list of how long some ships could stay at sea with full steam based on the amount of coal carried (rather than distance they could travel it was just in numbers of days).

[Tanthalas]

IDK I mostly use period guns on my stuff (im a sucker for 12" guns what can I say) so the numbers on it are readily available (or atleast it isnt brain surgery to find em)

[Carthaginian]

Instead of BiGun, we could also use my program (see this threat). Admittedly its not very user friendly as it is now, and requires some basic understanding, but in can create any gun you like and calculate its range quite precise. If used I could modify it to adjust it using the rules, which should make it simple enough to handle without knowledge besides the rules.

I never knew that yours was finished, Nobody.
I'm more than happy to use it... even if it's not the most friendly thing in the world, I'm willing to accept that for the ability to make unique weapons!

[Nobody]

Instead of BiGun, we could also use my program (see this threat). Admittedly its not very user friendly as it is now, and requires some basic understanding, but in can create any gun you like and calculate its range quite precise. If used I could modify it to adjust it using the rules, which should make it simple enough to handle without knowledge besides the rules.

I never knew that yours was finished, Nobody.
I'm more than happy to use it... even if it's not the most friendly thing in the world, I'm willing to accept that for the ability to make unique weapons!

As pretty much every program its work in progress, only that I didn't feel like changing anything recently. But most of the things that are not finished yet could be easily settled if someone said: "we are using A for this tech level and B for that."

[Carthaginian]

Let me rephrase that- I didn't know how polished yours was.
I do know that the link gets me a 'not found' message, could you repost it? This would allow us to get familiar with it before we started to actually get down to it.

[Nobody]

Let me rephrase that- I didn't know how polished yours was.

Well, you can design guns quite accurately - if you know what you are doing. Best way is to input data from navweaps for a similar gun and than change caliber and shell weight (and make sure to click into all fields with the relative barrel lengths so that they are updated correctly).
Aerodynamic is a bit more complicated. I think I found a better solution, but I never even started to implement it.
Based on this, I'm very pleased with the range calculation.
Penetration, well too much missing data. Results only viable over a small range of speed and angle.
Oh and I haven't solved the save/load problem.

I do know that the link gets me a 'not found' message, could you repost it? This would allow us to get familiar with it before we started to actually get down to it.

That's because it it too big to be attached, and was put directly on the (old) server. Same is probably true for my table creation tool. As I have no webspace, I will have to talk to Guinness about that.

[Guinness]

Ballistics app installer link should work again now.

[Tanthalas]

ok it apears to work fine with the data I could get off NavWeps, Didnt realy tell me anything I didnt know but its a cool thing to have around to play with.

[Nobody]

ok it apears to work fine with the data I could get off NavWeps, Didnt realy tell me anything I didnt know but its a cool thing to have around to play with.

That's nice to hear, because that's what it's supposed to do. It would be more problematic if it would give greatly different results.

[Barcaii]

Hello. Looking at the rules terrifies me a bit but I think that's mainly as I have not wrapped my head around them yet. ;) I have one question regarding research, will we get to know what the different path actually entails, for example Hum Int or capital ships? Or are only some of them revealed from the start?

[Jefgte]

Initially Revealed Tech Tree
Years are: Years everyone can get it/Years only those with required establishment can get this. Establishments required are in (parens)

Naval Propulsion:
Baseline: Engine year: year laid down, 100% coal, simple expansion engines only
1890/1885: Engine year: year laid down, 100% coal, vertical triple expansion engines (Naval Propulsion Establishment)

Shipbuilding Materials:
Baseline: Iron ships, overall strength of 1.2 required
1890/1885: Early steel ships, overall strength of 1.1 required (Either the Capital Ship or Jeune Ecole Establishment)
Armor:
Baseline: Composite armor.
1890/1885: Harvey Nickel Steel armor, protection +1. (Capital Ship Establishment)

Artillery:
Baseline: Max muzzle energy 1900 million lb.ft^2/s^2
1890/1885: Max muzzle energy 2500 million lb.ft^2/s^2 (Guns gunnery and Fire control)

(There is likely more to come here too.)

Please Modos, change strenght to
Baseline: Iron ships, overall strength of 1.1 required
1890/1885: Early steel ships, overall strength of 1.05 required (Either the Capital Ship or Jeune Ecole Establishment)[/b]

...to have realist ships


Jef

[Walter]

Stick to KISS and throw that rule out of there.  ::)

[Carthaginian]

I like the idea of having increased strength for older ships (and decreased strength for post-WNT cruisers) but I agree with Jef that 1.20 is just flat too darn heavy. It's hard enough to make Springsharp sim historic ships at 1.0 composite (though 3 makes is a bit easier than 2), and you have to do a bit of 'tuning' and 'tweaking' to get them there sometimes.

1.1 is plenty of a strength handicap... so let's get around this part already and get closer to playing- September is coming on like a freight train. :)