1860 Frigate...

[Desertfox]

... yeah right.


La Perla Negra (Capitan Juan Sparrow... err... Penelope Cruz), Built in Great Britain (Flag NOT British) Frigate (umm... Pirate Ship) laid down 1860 (last resurrected 1877)

Displacement:
   2,253 t light; 2,346 t standard; 3,086 t normal; 3,677 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   300.00 ft / 300.00 ft x 40.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   91.44 m / 91.44 m x 12.19 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      18 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 32.00lbs / 14.51kg shells, 1860 Model
     Muzzle loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 576 lbs / 261 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 2,026 ihp / 1,511 Kw = 13.00 kts (20.00 kts under sail)
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts (infinite under sail)
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,331 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   206 - 269

Cost:
   £0.203 million / $0.812 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 40 tons, 1.3 %
   Machinery: 649 tons, 21.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,364 tons, 44.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 833 tons, 27.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 6.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     2,211 lbs / 1,003 Kg = 125.6 x 4.0 " / 102 mm shells or 0.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.42
   Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 11.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 65 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.18
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.87

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
     and transom stern (simulates that she is faster than any ship afloat)
   Block coefficient: 0.450
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 20.39 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 29 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 35
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.00 ft / 4.57 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Mid (50 %):      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Stern:      12.00 ft / 3.66 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.24 ft / 3.73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 88.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 7,951 Square feet or 739 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 170 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 99 lbs/sq ft or 483 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.60
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Carthaginian]

Another Black Pearl?

*le sigh*

DF, this ship is not the ship you need to be building man... for a myriad of reasons.
Not the least of which is that bringing back Jack Sparrow is bound to lead to another series of wars where it winds up being the world vs you.  :-\

[snip]

*sharpens bayonets, loads the guns, raises steam*

what, Im not the only one thinking it am I?

[Tanthalas]

I have to say I felt the pirates in N3 didnt fit the period, and im afraid adding pirates to N4 would be somthing if put to a vote I would vote against (atleast in the sence you apear to be working at, minor local pirate groups that attack and seize ships in the med or indonesia I could see)

[Korpen]

I have to say I felt the pirates in N3 didnt fit the period, and im afraid adding pirates to N4 would be somthing if put to a vote I would vote against (atleast in the sence you apear to be working at, minor local pirate groups that attack and seize ships in the med or indonesia I could see)

Not even that; there is no economy in it.
This is an era were there are no assault rifles or speedboats, so to take a ship on the high seas one need a pretty serious ship oneself. That sort of ship is bloody expensive to outfit and man, so unlike a small band that just robs the ship of its cash they need to take the entire ship and cargo if they want any chance to turn a profit. That leads to the next problem; what to do with the stolen ship and cargo. To be able to sell things with profit one must take it to a port, trying to keep things secret kills any possibility of profit as well as being unlikely to work.

In a way piracy is not a problem "at sea" but a symptom of problems on land, without a secure base, a pirate cannot operate for any period of time (one reason why for every ship taken by pirates throughout post-medieval history at least fifty was taken by privateers and commerce raiders). This brings us to the least point, the huge political and economic cost of allowing pirates to operate from ones ports. In this period the diplomatically correct thing to do in case of port sheltering pirates is to send a naval squadron and burn the port to the ground if the city/state in question claim ignorance or incapacity, and open war if not (read: strong enough that a punitive expedition is not enough). If heavily armed criminals are known to operate from a port that also seriously reduce commercial activity, increase the insurance cost of ships trafficking the port and generally discouraging trade. Taken together there is no sane reason for any civilised nation to allow piracy as there is little to be gained, and huge potential risks. Uncivilised nations simply lack the means to protect such an operation from the punitive expeditions that will be sent out against them (most likely from a boxer rebellion –style coalition).

[Walter]

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
     and transom stern (simulates that she is faster than any ship afloat)

You may call it that, but I call that cheating (as well as BS).  ::)

[miketr]

Something to keep in mind.  The game is going to start with a bunch of white space and also minor / non civilized lands.  Places with weak / corrupt central governments.  Think Somalia all over the globe.  Piracy is currently a problem in Indonesia.  Without a global police force, IE the RN, to stomp out problems like this across the globe and so many poorly controlled bits of territory pirates are going to be a very real problem.  From geo-political setup the world is closer to 18th century.  Worse every time one of us goes to war its going to draw pirates like flies to dead carcass.

I have to say I felt the pirates in N3 didnt fit the period, and im afraid adding pirates to N4 would be somthing if put to a vote I would vote against (atleast in the sence you apear to be working at, minor local pirate groups that attack and seize ships in the med or indonesia I could see)

Not even that; there is no economy in it.
This is an era were there are no assault rifles or speedboats, so to take a ship on the high seas one need a pretty serious ship oneself. That sort of ship is bloody expensive to outfit and man, so unlike a small band that just robs the ship of its cash they need to take the entire ship and cargo if they want any chance to turn a profit. That leads to the next problem; what to do with the stolen ship and cargo. To be able to sell things with profit one must take it to a port, trying to keep things secret kills any possibility of profit as well as being unlikely to work.

Much less cost than you think to support such ships.  This is still the era that MOST ships can be repaired anyplace with access to wood and a protected cove.  Also it costs money for civilian ships to have their own gun crews etc.  Accept for high end cargo there simply isn't the ability to have large gun crews on civilian ships.  Which brings me to my next point, the default Pirate in this era isn't going to have a steam frigate, and that is what DF has here.  They are going to have something smaller and even more lightly armed.

In a way piracy is not a problem "at sea" but a symptom of problems on land, without a secure base, a pirate cannot operate for any period of time (one reason why for every ship taken by pirates throughout post-medieval history at least fifty was taken by privateers and commerce raiders). This brings us to the least point, the huge political and economic cost of allowing pirates to operate from ones ports. In this period the diplomatically correct thing to do in case of port sheltering pirates is to send a naval squadron and burn the port to the ground if the city/state in question claim ignorance or incapacity, and open war if not (read: strong enough that a punitive expedition is not enough). If heavily armed criminals are known to operate from a port that also seriously reduce commercial activity, increase the insurance cost of ships trafficking the port and generally discouraging trade. Taken together there is no sane reason for any civilised nation to allow piracy as there is little to be gained, and huge potential risks. Uncivilised nations simply lack the means to protect such an operation from the punitive expeditions that will be sent out against them (most likely from a boxer rebellion –style coalition).

Korpen there is no UK in this game, the RN crushed piracy into dust.  In effect to start the game the entire southern Hemisphere of the globe is outside of the players control.  You want to deal with pirates then you need to DEAL with it.  Keeping in mind that without a chain of coaling stations and your own bases just how hard its going to be to launch a punitive expedition.  Without these bases you the players have serious problems, in effect any threats you care to make to the Minor Nations LACK TEETH.   

At the same time I don't see this being the second  Golden Age of Piracy with long shore raids, large pirate bases, etc.  Instead you have a constant if low level of attacks on civilian shipping in southern waters that from time to time bleeds north, mostly when you guys show weakness.  The ships, cargo and some times crews are sold in anyone of various southern hemisphere ports. 

Given time I fully expect you guys to stomp out this problem but you will have to work on it.  Seize basis, launch punitive expeditions (butcher and bolt as the British used to say) and finally seizing the territory of the worst offenders or those that convenient.

Attacks on civilians (traders and missionaries) was used as excuses for colonial powers to seize territory all through the 18th and 19th centuries in places like India and China.   

Michael

PS DF, ship is too big and has too much coal IMHO.

Michael

[Desertfox]

You may call it that, but I call that cheating (as well as BS).

That was the intention...  ;) Pirates don't play by the rules. And really doesn't do much, saves like 50 tons.

PS DF, ship is too big and has too much coal IMHO.

Definately too much coal. Thought size is dictated by armament. The actual Black Pearl was supposed to carry 32x32lbs cannons in two decks. I cut that down to one deck.

[Korpen]

Something to keep in mind.  The game is going to start with a bunch of white space and also minor / non civilized lands.  Places with weak / corrupt central governments.  Think Somalia all over the globe.  Piracy is currently a problem in Indonesia. 

Piracy in Somalia is a problem largely for moral and political reasons, and would be easy to solve of one did not mind the body count. But today it is not acceptable to sink everything that floats and then burn down the town one suspect of being a pirate base, in the 19th century it was.

In Indonesia it is of smaller scale and strictly a local issue. It is also mainly concentrated to regions with insurgencies, and would never have been able to function if other states did not respect Indonesia's territorial waters and territory.

Korpen there is no UK in this game, the RN crushed piracy into dust.  In effect to start the game the entire southern Hemisphere of the globe is outside of the players control.  You want to deal with pirates then you need to DEAL with it.  Keeping in mind that without a chain of coaling stations and your own bases just how hard its going to be to launch a punitive expedition.  Without these bases you the players have serious problems, in effect any threats you care to make to the Minor Nations LACK TEETH.   

To put it simply, if a merchant vessel can get there, so can a naval vessel. If no merchant vessel goes there it does not matter if there are pirates there or not.

[Walter]

Pirates don't play by the rules.

Maybe so, but unfortunately for those pirates, you must play by the rules or feel the wrath of the almighty moderators who will no doubt arrange an accident for Perla Negra which causes her to sink in the deepest part of the ocean and making her a permanent exhibition in Davey Jones's Naval Museum. :)

And really doesn't do much, saves like 50 tons.

I messed around with SS a bit and you're looking at HS difference of a little bit over 0.05.

Thought size is dictated by armament. The actual Black Pearl was supposed to carry 32x32lbs cannons in two decks. I cut that down to one deck.

The actual Black Pearl is also a 100% sailing vessel. Stuffing engines in there requires space and a stronger hull, etc., it is only natural that that results in a bigger ship.

[Carthaginian]

I wanna know how the Sam Damn Hell that this ship gets 20 knots under sail and has a transom stern... when there were absolutely no ships like that. DF this ship is pure and simple cheating, and if it or any other ship like it appears in the game I will completely ignore it, it's exploits or anything associated with it.

[miketr]

You may call it that, but I call that cheating (as well as BS).

That was the intention...  ;) Pirates don't play by the rules. And really doesn't do much, saves like 50 tons.

PS DF, ship is too big and has too much coal IMHO.

Definately too much coal. Thought size is dictated by armament. The actual Black Pearl was supposed to carry 32x32lbs cannons in two decks. I cut that down to one deck.

Then what you have is a RAZEE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Cumberland_%281842%29

Look at her 1857 weapons load.

Michael

[Walter]

this ship is pure and simple cheating

So you also call that bit I quoted before 'cheating'. :)

I said 'cheating' regarding the "transom stern" bit and 'BS' regarding the "simulates that she is faster than any ship afloat" bit. If one wants a faster ship, one will need to sim it faster.

[miketr]

Something to keep in mind.  The game is going to start with a bunch of white space and also minor / non civilized lands.  Places with weak / corrupt central governments.  Think Somalia all over the globe.  Piracy is currently a problem in Indonesia. 

Piracy in Somalia is a problem largely for moral and political reasons, and would be easy to solve of one did not mind the body count. But today it is not acceptable to sink everything that floats and then burn down the town one suspect of being a pirate base, in the 19th century it was.

Cool now carry out the threat Korpen.  With what bases?  With what coaling stations?  To support said punitive expedition.  Worse what if your fellow nations sees fight to sell modern coastal artillery to said nest of vipers.

The UK could do this because the Britannia ruled the waves and had the network of ports and bases to support said rule. What do you and the rest of the players have?

In Indonesia it is of smaller scale and strictly a local issue. It is also mainly concentrated to regions with insurgencies, and would never have been able to function if other states did not respect Indonesia's territorial waters and territory.

The problem occurs because there is no central authority and in such conditions banditry is the default setting.

Korpen there is no UK in this game, the RN crushed piracy into dust.  In effect to start the game the entire southern Hemisphere of the globe is outside of the players control.  You want to deal with pirates then you need to DEAL with it.  Keeping in mind that without a chain of coaling stations and your own bases just how hard its going to be to launch a punitive expedition.  Without these bases you the players have serious problems, in effect any threats you care to make to the Minor Nations LACK TEETH.   

To put it simply, if a merchant vessel can get there, so can a naval vessel. If no merchant vessel goes there it does not matter if there are pirates there or not.

So when your steel hulled ship shows up at port, bombards said port and finds itself crippled 2,000+ miles from home what happens then?  I have said several times the semi-civilized nations are NOT toothless.  They are corrupt and they weak but not helpless.  If you choose to make a major expedition out of it you can, but consider the effects of sending large amounts of your navy and a landing force far from home.  Perhaps other plays might not like this, perhaps they will take advantage of it.

The problem we have here is that 1880 is a late start for this sort of stuff 1680 or 1780 would make FAR more sense.  Issues like this should have been resolved by now one way or another.  But people want to use spring style and do a race for the globe so the game starts with a power vacuum in places.  In power vacuums you have bandits, pure and simple.  I expect you guys to within 10 year or so to fill in the vacuum.

Michael

[Carthaginian]

I didn't notice the transom stern till you pointed it out.
Once I did... well, it's against the rules and therefore cheating.

I also call it cheating because he expects this ship to consistently make over 20 knots.
Only 10 sailing vessels IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND have broken 18 knots for an extended period of time. They did this for comparatively short periods of time, under very specific and under conditions which are nearly impossible to duplicate, and only on certain specific routes. The 22 knot 'absolute record' set by Sovereign of the Seas in 1854 STILL STANDS TO THIS DAY as the fastest tall ship in history.

DF's ship is clearly built with the intent to do things that 10 sailing ships could do realistically.
DF's personal history shows that this will be used, abused, folded, spindled and mutilated.

I hate making rules for the sake of making rules... but I think we need to make a rule to prevent stuff like this.