Mutant Monitor-Thing

[Carthaginian]

So I guess you want to teach us Europeans that it is called the 1st/2nd Battle of Manassas and not the 1st/2nd Battle of Bull Run as 'Those People' call it and that, unlike what 'Those People' say, Sherman was a crazy, murdering, looting, burning and pillaging war criminal who should burn in hell for all the atrocities he and his troops committed. :o ;D

LOL... all that, in addition to the fact that Andrew Jackson is a lying, murderous bastard who should have been strung up rather than elected President. :D There are a lot of different views on who was 'right' and who was 'oppressed' and by whom when it comes to the early to mid-19th century in my country, Walter. I sit on a different side of those views than the ones taught in public school, I guess.  :'( History gets written by the victors- and the opinions of those who get defeated are lost... sometimes.

And Sherman was the worst kind of murdering bastard... his actions during the war are but some of the reasons he should be regarded as a poor example of a human, and more of a bigot than many of the men he fought.
"The more Indians we can kill this year, the less will have to be killed next year, for the more I see of these Indians, the more convinced I am that they all have to be killed or be maintained as a species of paupers."-- General William T. Sherman, USA

[Nobody]

I would just like to mention, that I have absolutely no idea what in gods name you are arguing about, ever since someone said "yanks".

[Sachmle]

Carth is from Alabama, in what would have been part of the Confederate States of America. He takes offense to being called a "Yank" or "Yankee" as that is a term intended to represent those who reside North of the Mason-Dixon line and fought for the Union during the War of Secession (Or US Civil War as it is usually, inaccurately referred to).

As to Sherman, I'm from Ohio (Unfortunately) and I think he was a Monster, I can't imagine what someone from the South thinks of him. When we go to Georgia, we rent a car and tell no one where we are from for fear of shattered windows, flat tires, and spit (or worse) in our food.

[Guinness]

Strangely I'm from Georgia, and none of the stuff that bothers Carthaginian seems to both me. I was born astride the northern defensive lines of the city of Atlanta, and I live within spitting distance of the point of view of the Cyclorama.

*shrug*

[Carthaginian]

Strangely I'm from Georgia, and none of the stuff that bothers Carthaginian seems to both me.

*shrugs back*
Some people are bothered by different things.
I've met Welsh and Scots who didn't mind being called 'British' and I met those who'd pull your ears off for the same. I have met people who have native blood- some don't mind being called 'Indians',  some want to be called 'Native Americans,' and some insist that they are [insert tribe here] and not to be lumped in with historic enemies- though the feuds are centuries past.
Different cultures, different points of view... sometimes even within the same lines on a map.

[ctwaterman]

I wonder some times why Sherman gets the blame for things he didnt do and doesnt get blamed for some of the things he actually did ???

If the Confederate Troops set fire to their military stores while they are fleeing a city and the fire spreads to most of the City well I guess the guy who didnt arrive in time to put out the fire is truely to blame.  :-X

That would I guess make Grant completely responsible for the destruction of Richmond which was largely caused by the Fire set at the Confederate munitions works and armory which set off over 100,000 rounds of munition.   Which helped burn down most of the city.

History can be very critical of men who lived in their time and with the values of that time.   Lincoln the great amancipator was fully infavor of sending all the Freed slaves back to Africa.

And Sherman got some real bad press in the South considering he broke the back of the Confederacy well that isnt going to make him a popular guy down south.  Heck I am not sure he was ever a real popular guy anywhere.

[Ithekro]

I always contest the idea that "History is written by the victors".  I point to the American Civil War.  Who wrote the history on that?  Southerns usually.  Which side gets glorified the most in that war?  The South.

But whenever I have two friends from the Northeast and Southeast fightng over the war, I point something out to them...the cause for the war was the West.  As  Californian I can say we were the cause of the war...the imbalance in Congress as the nation spread west was more a factor than anything else...a balance that had been setup from the start due to the imbalance in population size from north to south.  Slavery was a cause for that imbalance due to the slaves not counting for a full person, and that the one does not have large population centers when one is growing massive amounts of export crops...you simply don't have the space for cities when you do that.  While in the north, industry happens, and you need lots more labor for that stuff than you do for picking cotton and tabacco.  Thus the differences in the House...only being equal in the Senate if the number of states remains equal.  So without the West, the balance would be maintained...but with the West...there is a reason for imbalance and the South to walk away and start their own country...because if they didn't they felt the North would dominate them in Congress and enact whatever the hell legislation they wanted without the South being able to do a damn thing.

The irony of this is that they left before Lincoln took office...and he had said that he would do whatever to took to maintain the Union...even bend backwards for the Southern states.  They left before he could prove it.  If they waited a few months they might have gotten what they wanted from the President.  Instead they got blood, glory, and suffering.  And a history they won't forget (or let anyone else forget either).

-------------------
On topic:

What sort of ironcladish warships would be suted for the Sea of Japan and the Yello Sea regions?

[Carthaginian]

also desiring to get back on topic- one example that would be what NOT to do might be th former Stonewall, comissioned into the IJN as Koketsu. another would be the massively over-armed Unebi.
a ship that I can think of which was very successful might follow the example of the Elswick cruisers ordered by the Chinese. I used one as the model for my Great Lakes cruiser.

[TexanCowboy]

Texy here shall plan war of revenge on Santa Anna. See; we don't really care as much about Sherman as we do about those atrocities carried out by Ureba and Santa Anna (which were arguablly worse; execution of prisoners?)

[Desertfox]

Actually they were not really atrocities, as they were not prisoners of war but rather traitors. Those captured at Goliad where either Mexican citizens of foreign mercenaries. Neither is covered under rules of war, and both can be executed.

[Ithekro]

 I'd ask about Polish ironclads, but they would be similar to Russian Black Sea designs as well as a Baltic Sea force to counter the Nordic style monitors.  That region I have seen designs for.  Asia I have seen fewer (well fewer that I like...I never liked the Sino-Japanese War era Chinese warships, and liked some of the Japanese warships)

[TexanCowboy]

I think Poland is too limited; you're caged into the Baltic. Korea is probably a better choice...

[Valles]

My reasons for hoping Ithekro will prefer Poland are entirely selfish; if Korea isn't controlled by a player, then I'll have a much easier time inducing and taking advantage of a civil war there.

That said, I'm honestly kind of surprised that no one's compared these designs to HMS Monarch. I'm thinking a little of her and a little of the Italian Duilios, I'd say... I want to say that there was a turret ship the CSA ordered overseas that was a much more successful design than Monitor, but I haven't been able to find her again on Wiki, so that could be a complete illusion on my part.

[Ithekro]

Looking on the Europe map N4 Poland seems to be the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth minus parts of historical Kaiser's Germany.  So modern day Poland (minus parts of Prussia), Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania, and Latvia.

[TexanCowboy]

I'd disagree with that, mainly cause "The victors write the history". Besides, I don't think that those at Goliad were "mercenaries"; volunteers from another nations might describe it better.

In any case, Santa Anna's treatment of prisoners, from the Yucatan to Zacatares (spelling?) to Texas to Vera Cruz...all over, was simply atrocious. The fate of the Mier Expedition, with the bean out of a pot execution of members of a nation Mexico recognized, was espicially gruelling.