1880 - How to start the Navy?

[Carthaginian]

Meh... the Dunderberg is a prime example of what happens when you try to 'super-size' a wooden ship.
Like people, too much 'super-sizing' winds you up with a fatass that can't really accomplish anything useful except consuming more resources than a smaller, more useful subject would to accomplish the same goal. Dunderberg was to have been the most powerful warship in the world- a Union built mutation of a Virginia-style casemate ironclad, but armed with 11" and 15" MLRs. The problem was that the hull was too large, too slow and too weak- it hogged quickly and the French scrapped it in less than a decade.
Also, the Great Eastern is another such example...

[Valles]

I was, in fact, specifically thinking of the Great Eastern, because she was a massive floating avatar of utterly impractical awesome. A ruleset which allows such things is to be coveted!

[Darman]

USS Dunderberg, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1862

Displacement:
   7,020 t light; 7,374 t standard; 7,800 t normal; 8,141 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   377.00 ft / 377.00 ft x 73.00 ft x 21.50 ft (normal load)
   114.91 m / 114.91 m x 22.25 m  x 6.55 m

Armament:
      16 - 8.00" / 203 mm guns in single mounts, 148.48lbs / 67.35kg shells, 1862 Model
     Muzzle loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 2,376 lbs / 1,078 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.50" / 89 mm   226.20 ft / 68.95 m   10.25 ft / 3.12 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length
     Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.50" / 114 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 6,100 ihp / 4,551 Kw = 15.00 kts
   Range 1,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 766 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   414 - 539

Cost:
   £0.752 million / $3.007 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 297 tons, 3.8 %
   Armour: 723 tons, 9.3 %
      - Belts: 366 tons, 4.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 356 tons, 4.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 1,833 tons, 23.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 4,168 tons, 53.4 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 780 tons, 10.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,167 lbs / 2,798 Kg = 41.5 x 8.0 " / 203 mm shells or 0.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.51
   Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 12.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.22
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low forecastle, rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.461
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.16 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.42 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m (25.00 ft / 7.62 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      25.00 ft / 7.62 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (25 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m (20.00 ft / 6.10 m before break)
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.80 ft / 5.73 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 186.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,722 Square feet or 1,646 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 160 lbs/sq ft or 781 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.88
      - Longitudinal: 3.00
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[Carthaginian]

Nothing like the Dunderberg, Darman.
She carried four 15" MLR's and twelve 11" MLR's on that tonnage!
This isn't really possible with Springsharp, and for a good reason- the Dunderberg was so overstressed that her hull could never have survived. Even with the armament reduction that the French gave her, she was still too strained and she only served actively for a few weeks.

[Nobody]

What do you have against the Great Eastern? Technically there was nothing wrong with her, right? Sure she got stuck on the slip, there weren't enough passengers and she wasn't used for what she had be designed and build. But that aside?

That aside I'm pretty sure we won't be able to build such a big ship. Either because our slips will be too small or because we don't have the technology.

[Darman]

Nothing like the Dunderberg, Darman.
She carried four 15" MLR's and twelve 11" MLR's on that tonnage!
This isn't really possible with Springsharp, and for a good reason- the Dunderberg was so overstressed that her hull could never have survived. Even with the armament reduction that the French gave her, she was still too strained and she only served actively for a few weeks.

I downgraded the weapons because of hull strain.  At the same time, I didn't know the calibers of the original weapons, Wikipedia said 4x15'' MLR and 2x11'' MLR but said it had originally mounted 16 guns. 

[eltf177]

HMS Banterer, Great Britain Screw Gunboat laid down 1880
Corvette (Unarmoured)

   Shells per gun, main battery: 0

Anybody else see a problem?

[Darman]

HMS Banterer, Great Britain Screw Gunboat laid down 1880
Corvette (Unarmoured)

   Shells per gun, main battery: 0

Anybody else see a problem?

Haha!  Wow... I didn't even notice and probably never would have noticed.  Thanks!

[Jefgte]

Did I have not all understand or...
We have no answer from the Modos about the start.

Snip question:

so question to the mods: Are we going to have a time period to build up our pre-1880 navy, or are we assuming that everyone starts with 0 ships on day 1?

1 jan 1880

- We start with a bonus ( around 50 000t each, for ex)
- We start from 1876
- We can't move or do nothing before 1884
- ???


Jef  ;)

[Sachmle]

I'm pretty sure we'll start in 1880 with preexisting ships build prior to that (such as we did here, and in N2, and N1 afaik) and there will probably be some kind of amount of prior tonnage that we can divvy up as we see fit. Just my guess though.

[Ithekro]

In N1/N2 we were given the production capability of out nations in terms of tonnage roughly per year...We didn't quite take into account maintenance and build times.  I recall that with the old rules Rohan was extremely top heavy with older predreadnoughts and armored cruisers that I had to put a whole lot of them in reserve at the start just to affort to keep the others and build at an increadibly slow pace the new ships. ( I think I  had less than half my total production avalible for new ships and if I went active with the fleet I would have nothing left to build with).

Also it was top heavy...I spent the extra on protected cruisers, destroyers and the like.  Meaning that one of the first things I did was a ship swap with the CSA...a pair of old battleships and four armored cruiseres for two dozen protected cruisers (same amount of tonnage).  This was so Rohan would have a fuctional patrol arm that wasn't all armored cruisers or battleships...only a few of which could even make 18 knots.

I could check a 1898 Jane's to see what counties stil had but that would be 18 years after 1880 (oldest ships listed tend to be either early-mid 1860s ironclads or training ships that use sails only...but also from the 1860s).  One would assume they would still have a few wooden steam ships from the 1850s and 1860s.  Some ironclads from the 1860s and iron ships from the 1870s.  Assuming one things a ship will still have an average life of 30 years of semi-active service.  They might even have some strictly sail powered ships, but you can't sim those in SS.  I'm not even sure it can sim wooden hulled ships that have sails and steam engines properly.  Even though the program can go back to 1850.  I doubt you would find anyone still using an old 1820s or older ship of the line or frigate in 1880 for anything other than training or a floating structure.

[ctwaterman]

Ok.....

Finally catching up on all my reading.....  If you hide a question in the Ship building section it might take some time to get an answer PM next time.... :o 8)

The Answer is you will be receiving a chunk of $$$$ where $1=1000 Tons of shipping we are currently working on how to price ships the current Idea is Standard Tonnage.   

This money will be spent to purchase many things including your army and Naval Building Infrastructure.   However if you think you will have roughly 100K Tons of ships to start with you probably wont be to far off....

In addition ships that are older 1860 and 1870 designs will cost less and ships that are new 1870 and 1880 Tech will cost more of your starting budget.   So a mix of Older Single Screw with Coal fired boiler and sails with more modern Ericson turrets and Open Barbette Battle Ships is what you should be building.  What you do build  ::) :-[ is up to you.