Navy of Deseret

[Tanthalas]

First ship im posting (but far from the first ship) the upper belt is used to sim the sloped armord deck of a PC.

Archangel, Deseret Barbette Cruiser laid down 1875
Barbette ship

Displacement:
   8,900 t light; 9,219 t standard; 10,031 t normal; 10,680 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   383.00 ft / 383.00 ft x 63.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   116.74 m / 116.74 m x 19.20 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
      6 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (3x2 guns), 515.76lbs / 233.95kg shells, 1875 Model
     Breech loading guns in open barbettes
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      6 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 35.31lbs / 16.02kg shells, 1875 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     6 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      2 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 16.61lbs / 7.54kg shells, 1875 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all forward
     2 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      6 - 3.50" / 88.9 mm guns in single mounts, 16.61lbs / 7.54kg shells, 1875 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      10 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.31lbs / 0.59kg shells, 1875 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 3,452 lbs / 1,566 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 60

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   241.00 ft / 73.46 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   3.00" / 76 mm   241.00 ft / 73.46 m   4.00 ft / 1.22 m
     Main Belt covers 97 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:         -            -         10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   1.50" / 38 mm         -               -
   3rd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   5th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 9,000 ihp / 6,714 Kw = 16.41 kts
   Range 3,000nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,461 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   500 - 651

Cost:
   £0.955 million / $3.820 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 432 tons, 4.3 %
   Armour: 2,892 tons, 28.8 %
      - Belts: 1,410 tons, 14.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 720 tons, 7.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 642 tons, 6.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 120 tons, 1.2 %
   Machinery: 2,007 tons, 20.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,570 tons, 35.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,131 tons, 11.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,887 lbs / 3,577 Kg = 15.3 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.35
   Metacentric height 4.3 ft / 1.3 m
   Roll period: 12.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.75

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.582
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.08 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.57 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.00 ft / 5.18 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   17.00 ft / 5.18 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
      - Mid (49 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.51 ft / 4.42 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 96.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 92.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 17,353 Square feet or 1,612 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 97 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 136 lbs/sq ft or 664 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.10
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

[TexanCowboy]

Doesn't seem just a TAD advanced to you, a little TAD? I mean, hell, you went to a Brandenburg layout 16 years in advance....come on now.

[Carthaginian]

There are PLENTY of ships with open barbettes at that time, and multiple vessels with multiple turrets at this time.
Tan put 2+2 together.
She's very much a cousin of the H.M.S. Neptune and the H.M.S. Temeraire.

Tan likes A-Q-Y layout vessels.
It's his kink- same as Korpen & DF like fast ships and I like armored ones.

[Desertfox]

Umm... neither of those ships had breech loading guns, nor 6 in AQY layouts. Nor where blazing fast for the time period. Tan's ship also has a super heavy secondary, when there are no real torpedo boats around.

[Carthaginian]

As I said- Tan put 2 (layout) + 2 (BL guns) together... he added several different things from different ships together to create a ship with the best of all features.

I will say that there is a very extensive anti-TB battery, in an era when such boats were curiosities.
That sits ill with the overall feel of the ship, as DF points out.

[Desertfox]

But no ships of the time period had BL guns or 3 inline turrets.

[Carthaginian]

But no ships of the time period had BL guns or 3 inline turrets.

No, but SEVERAL ships prior to this time period DID, DF.
One can only carry the 'not realistic' argument so far... as this is not Reality Land.
Now, I don't want to see it turn into Vicodin Land, but it will never be Reality Land.

[Tanthalas]

I just always liked the symetry of AQY *shrugs* its just my thing.  ;)  the ship I based her on (admitedly loosley) was HMS Collosus (1879)  which used BL 12" in 2 twin turrets I streached her a bit to go AQY (Like I said its just my thing) the french were already using barbs on alot of stuff so I stole the idea from them.

as to the rest of the guns, I proly let my tendancy for cram get a bit ahead of the period...

[Desertfox]

So I guess you will be perfectly fine with me building this ship? I mean just borrowing all the best stuff from other contemporary ships...


ARM Puebla, Mexico Battleship laid down 1885

Displacement:
   18,392 t light; 19,635 t standard; 20,250 t normal; 20,742 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   450.00 ft / 450.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 35.00 ft (normal load)
   137.16 m / 137.16 m x 22.86 m  x 10.67 m

Armament:
      6 - 17.00" / 432 mm guns (3x2 guns), 2,272.26lbs / 1,030.68kg shells, 1885 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      8 - 7.00" / 178 mm guns (4x2 guns), 158.64lbs / 71.96kg shells, 1885 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 14,903 lbs / 6,760 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   450.00 ft / 137.16 m   5.00 ft / 1.52 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 154 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm         -         14.0" / 356 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 25,831 ihp / 19,270 Kw = 20.00 kts
   Range 4,000nm at 7.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,107 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   848 - 1,103

Cost:
   £2.911 million / $11.646 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,863 tons, 9.2 %
   Armour: 3,312 tons, 16.4 %
      - Belts: 916 tons, 4.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 1,940 tons, 9.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 457 tons, 2.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 5,021 tons, 24.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,196 tons, 40.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,858 tons, 9.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,552 lbs / 2,972 Kg = 2.9 x 17.0 " / 432 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 3.7 ft / 1.1 m
   Roll period: 16.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 41 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.99
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.83

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 21.21 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.25 ft / 6.48 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.58 ft / 4.44 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 148.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 77.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 24,684 Square feet or 2,293 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 72 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 216 lbs/sq ft or 1,057 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.30
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Poor seaboat, wet and uncomfortable, reduced performance in heavy weather

[Carthaginian]

Foxy, if you wanna build that ship, go right ahead...
Of course, you'll have to reach the proper tech level for each individual component- like the 17" guns... but if you have the tech, I have no problem with anything you build.

ESPECIALLY a white elephant like THAT.

OH... just noticed that there was no barbette armor- so it'll go off like a firecracker.
And the belt is only 5' high... what you trying to stop... machine gun fire?
Also see that it has only about 2000 n.mi. @ 10 knots, as you figured the range at a much lower figure... how far can it steam at top speed, I wonder?
Steadiness and Seakeeping suck as well; any kind of weather will render this ship as dangerous as a fishing cork.
And she has a 35 foot draft! Where you gonna park the thing?!?!

Those are just my initial observations on the ship.

But again... PLEASE, build it if you want!

[Tanthalas]

Yucky stupid AY ships... speed is more or less the same, armor is more or less the same, but I deleated a bunch of small guns (all the 3.5s and 1.5s) and the Q turret *cries* oh and I shifted to turrets instead of barbs just to make the period nazis happy... and im still playing around with what to call the ship type. and stop posting so I can frekin get the reworked archangel posted people

DDS Archangel, Dominion of Deseret Ocean going Turret Ship laid down 1870

Displacement:
   9,100 t light; 9,389 t standard; 10,831 t normal; 11,985 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   341.00 ft / 341.00 ft x 62.00 ft x 27.00 ft (normal load)
   103.94 m / 103.94 m x 18.90 m  x 8.23 m

Armament:
     4 - 11.00" / 279 mm guns (2x2 guns), 464.00lbs / 210.47kg shells, 1870 Model
     Muzzle loading guns in Coles/Ericsson turrets
     on centreline, evenly spread
     8 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 31.89lbs / 14.47kg shells, 1870 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     8 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
   Weight of broadside 2,111 lbs / 958 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 60

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   221.00 ft / 67.36 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   221.00 ft / 67.36 m   4.00 ft / 1.22 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   10.0" / 254 mm   6.00" / 152 mm            -

  - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 10.00" / 254 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 2 shafts, 10,500 ihp / 7,833 Kw = 16.41 kts
   Range 4,300nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,596 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   530 - 690

Cost:
   £0.901 million / $3.605 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 265 tons, 2.4 %
   Armour: 2,613 tons, 24.1 %
      - Belts: 1,149 tons, 10.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 751 tons, 6.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 607 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 105 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 2,573 tons, 23.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,609 tons, 33.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,731 tons, 16.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 0.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     6,815 lbs / 3,091 Kg = 14.6 x 11.0 " / 279 mm shells or 1.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 14.6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 72 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.35
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.35

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.664
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 18.47 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 49 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 53
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   7.00 ft / 2.13 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m before break)
      - Stern:      7.00 ft / 2.13 m
      - Average freeboard:   12.60 ft / 3.84 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 82.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 16,406 Square feet or 1,524 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 148 lbs/sq ft or 722 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.91
      - Longitudinal: 2.28
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[TexanCowboy]

I'm a period nazi*, and I'm fine with barbettes. It's the AQY thing that freaks me out.

*ok, I object to that term, but that deserves a whole nother thread...

[Carthaginian]

Amended above post- read it for details!

[Desertfox]

I don't mind any of the components individually, but when you combine all of them its extremely advanced for its age.

If you want AQY, why not go with 3 larger singles?

[Carthaginian]

I don't mind any of the components individually, but when you combine all of them its extremely advanced for its age.

If you want AQY, why not go with 3 larger singles?

Because he wants to go German-style, DF... smaller, lighter guns and ships.
He is going to intentionally eschew large guns for more guns all the way through his design progression.