White Space vs. Non Civilized Nations

[miketr]

By Friday I am going to provide the following.

List of NPC's and vague info on their economy (Big, Medium, Small)

Big - Around Player Nation Size
Medium - Less than player nation size figure half
Small - Less than half player nation size

Area's of white space.

People will know were nations that have formed governments are that exchange ambassadors.  Gross details will be up to players to find out. 

Info will be like the following

Sultanate of Egypt, Islamic Monarchy, Economy - Big, very small navy but large if outdated army

[Desertfox]

May I suggest a Confederation of Central America as an NPC?

[miketr]

NOT FINISHED

NPC List

Europe

Berber Coast – Islamic Monarchy, Confederation of City States
Economy: Medium
Military: Lots of Fortified Cities, Some low quality Troops and a notable sized navy with lots of small warships.  From time to time out bursts of pirate activity occur by one or more of the city states.  Has been over two decades since last such out breaks.

Sultanate of Egypt - Islamic Monarchy, Economy - Big, very small navy but large if outdated army
Has a loose alliance with Persian Empire and Berber's.  As control of Islamic Holy Cities sees itself as the defender of Islam.  Has fought Byzantium a number of times but neither nation has achieved a lasting advantage.  Controls Suez Cannel and allows all nations to use it.

Persian Empire – Islamic Monarchy
Economy: Medium
Military: Small Navy but notable sized if outdated army

Poland – Ukraine – Parliamentary Monarchy
Economy: Medium+
Military: Coast Defense Navies in Baltic and Black Sea.  Notable armies but most cover a very large area so has lots of cavalry.
Broke Away from Russian Empire in 1848 upheavals and is worried about being attacked and re-absorbed.

Russian Empire – Absolute Monarchy
Economy: Big-
Military: Small Coast Defense Navy but large if outdated army

Following upheavals that saw Russia break apart saw Tsar take even stronger control of the state.  One of the most despotic nations on earth with secrete police force.  If not for internal problems would no doubt try to recover some of their lost territory.

Belgium & Netherlands: Parliamentary Monarchies
Economy: Medium
Military:  Small navies but both nations holding to an armed neutral stance lots of forts and troops to try to protect themselves.

Switzerland, Bosnia, Serbia, Wallachia and Moldavia: Governments Varied
Economy's: Small
Military: No navies and varied quality and strategy Armies


New World

Gran Columbia – Presidential Republic
Economy- Big
Military: Has coast defense navy but a notable sized army

Takes up North Western South America and all of Central America up to Mexico.  A very corrupt government and the nations elite spends most of their time trying to steal what they can between reforming backlashs.  As such has little time for outside affairs.  

Peru – Presidential Republic
Economy – Small
Military: No navy to speak of and army focus.  
United Provinces of the Río de la Plata – loose confederation
Economy – Medium
Military – Small navy and decentralized army and dated army

Nation is centered on Buenos Aires with decreasing control as you move out from there.  Noted as a nest of intrigue and in fighting

Rest of South America (Chile, Brazil, Southern Argentina, etc) is white space or rather small failed states.  Much of South America outside of the Amazon basis is going to be small city states.  They have enough of a military that you can't just stick a flag up and claim them but if you want to play conquistador they couldn't fight you off either.

Sub Saharan Africa

Sultinate of Zanzibar, Islamic Monarchy
Economy – Small
Military – Small Military split between Army and Navy
Controls the island of Zanzibar and near by territory on the East African mainland.  Is believed to be looking to expand.

Boer Republic(s), Presidential Republics
Economy(s) – Small
Military – Hybrid system of universal service and national militia.  Because of problems with Iron Age Africans Natives everyone has a gun from about age 12 and up

Cape Republic, Parliamentary State
Economy – Small
Military – Small professional army and even smaller army

Rest of Africa is white space or small failed states of little note.


Indian States

Mysore, Hyderabad, Bengal, Burma, Baroda and Bhopal all some flavor of Monarchy
Economy(s) - Small
Military - All small armies and fortress in almost constant war with each other.

Rest of India isn't exactly white space but its not real civilized states either.  Think more like city states where each province has a ruler and something of a military.  They have enough of a military that you can't just stick a flag up and claim them but if you want to play conquistador they couldn't fight you off either.


__________________

Could I be given a thumb nail of what the PC's are doing in the rest of asia?  As I see the players have created some NPC's and I want to be sure we are all on the same page here.  Ditto North America. 

Cuba and rest of caribbean is to be failed states in effect.  More than white space but less than a real NPC.

Michael

[TexanCowboy]

I'd like to inquire into the state of Venezuala. It seems like it should be part of Gran Columbia, but it doesn't appear to be.

Can I offer an alternate suggestion to Brazil? A "Dutch" based culture in the Northeast and a "Portugese" state in the South, two seperate nations that are fairly divided and weak? I think that's more realistic then "failed states", unless you assume that the Captaincy-Domingos (Or whatever they were called) had WAY more power than OTL.

[Desertfox]

Buenos Aires is in Argentina, I think you are thinking of Lima.

[miketr]

I'd like to inquire into the state of Venezuala. It seems like it should be part of Gran Columbia, but it doesn't appear to be.

Whatever gave you the idea that it wasn't?  In very simple terms its Gran Columbia plus Central America.

Can I offer an alternate suggestion to Brazil? A "Dutch" based culture in the Northeast and a "Portugese" state in the South, two seperate nations that are fairly divided and weak? I think that's more realistic then "failed states", unless you assume that the Captaincy-Domingos (Or whatever they were called) had WAY more power than OTL.

Idea is to give players lots of room for expansion, A race for colonies.  The easier to expand the less said territory is going to be worth.  Failed states have enough power that a guy with a couple of Maxim guns and some natives can't just take over.  Over simplification of what happened in Africa but close enough.  You want to blitz a failed state you need to use troops.  Diplomacy (write story) would also work.

Terms for Spanish control was Viceroyalty and Portuguese was Capitanias Hereditárias (hereditary captaincies)

[TexanCowboy]

Ok.

Can we assume that the indepedent territories in Brazil are "Capitanias Hereditarias," each with like a "Small -" economy on their own, or even lower?

Yes, I know that. I'm just trying to recall the orginal terms used when the Portugese king split up Brazil into 12 Hereditarias.

As for North America; No NPC's that we've created, no. We have the "Indian Confederation", but that's basically a placeholder for the rest of us to push into; it's a bunch of Indian tribes that are hostile to each other and to outsiders.

[Tanthalas]

Yup more or less what Tex said on the white space in NA.

[miketr]

Ok.

Can we assume that the indepedent territories in Brazil are "Capitanias Hereditarias," each with like a "Small -" economy on their own, or even lower?

You can assume that there is some stuff in Brazil that has something of economy, isn't centralized and will take more effort to take over than say a boat load of sailors with rifles.

Michael

[Tanthalas]

Ok.

Can we assume that the indepedent territories in Brazil are "Capitanias Hereditarias," each with like a "Small -" economy on their own, or even lower?

You can assume that there is some stuff in Brazil that has something of economy, isn't centralized and will take more effort to take over than say a boat load of sailors with rifles.

Michael

How about a Platoon of Marines with Rifles.  They would be vastly superior to even an armed Battleship crew, especialy if said battleship crew stayed on the ship and did their good Squid Job (namely supporting Marines with their big ass guns)  ;)

[TexanCowboy]

Someone should look up how many marines it took to occupy Nicaragua back in the twenties.

EDIT: It took 1,100 troops to "put down a rebel insurruction" and prop up a government. I'd assume a brigade's worth of marines would be needed to take over an area as big?

[Valles]

In regards to East Asia, I'd been thinking that 'Siberia' is a region that the Russians conquered a century or so ago from a somewhat crude and ramshackle 'native' state that'd picked up the habit of civilization - and gunmaking - from its southern neighbors. Since the Trans-Siberian Railroad is still in the future, the Russians' hold on the territory might be called 'shaky'.

The Tibetan Empire, bordering China and India, is a historical state dating back in its current form for two or three centuries, and is the successor of a series of similar states centered on the Tibetan plateau going back considerably farther. Tibet is a state blessed with an active, competent, and fairly honest government, but is technologically 'behind the times'.

The Mongolians are Barbarian Nomad Horsemen... who trade for and are quite skilled in the use of magazine rifles. For the last generation or three, they've had a succession of strong khans, and have thus been able to keep themselves independent despite their lack of infrastructure.

Wu and Korea are possible player states; thus, by default, they both come with technological advancement, considerable native wealth and education, and so forth. Wu is Ye Standarde Chinese Successor State, which is to say, quite dedicated to smashing its rivals and becoming the One True China once more.

Korea was conquered by Japan in the 1600s and broke free afterwards when the general in command of the occupation decided to set himself up as king instead of obeying orders. Aside from a thin veneer of Japanization over the ruling class and royal family, the nation is still pretty much 'itself'. Left to my own devices, I'd have them embroiled in a royal succession crisis at start of play.

[Korpen]

Poland – Ukraine – Parliamentary Monarchy
Economy: Medium+
Military: Coast Defense Navies in Baltic and Black Sea.  Notable armies but most cover a very large area so has lots of cavalry.
Broke Away from Russian Empire in 1848 upheavals and is worried about being attacked and re-absorbed.

Russian Empire – Absolute Monarchy
Economy: Big-
Military: Small Coast Defense Navy but large if outdated army

Just a thought here, but could it not be more interesting to break up Russia along the other axis with a Russia in control of Poland and the Baltic and ice sea coasts, and a Ukraine controlling the black sea coast and Caucasus (possibly stretching into Kazakhstan)?
This would reduce the "three oceans problem a bit" and give the states in question a bit more direction.

Rest of South America (Chile, Brazil, Southern Argentina, etc) is white space or rather small failed states.  Much of South America outside of the Amazon basis is going to be small city states.  They have enough of a military that you can't just stick a flag up and claim them but if you want to play conquistador they couldn't fight you off either.

Another thought: Why not more or less keep the ABC-countries and most of SA pretty much as OTL? If one just tune down their financial situation somewhat and ramp up the local tensions a bit one will end up with a more interesting situation imo. If the SA countries feel surrounded by potential enemies they will all be seeking foreign support and patronage opening up great opportunities for proxy conflict and intrigue for players from the moment the sim start. It will also reduce the workload of the moderator in the world building as there will be much smaller need to describe the region in detail (which would be necessary for diplomatic interaction with the states in the region).

[miketr]

Rest of South America (Chile, Brazil, Southern Argentina, etc) is white space or rather small failed states.  Much of South America outside of the Amazon basis is going to be small city states.  They have enough of a military that you can't just stick a flag up and claim them but if you want to play conquistador they couldn't fight you off either.

Another thought: Why not more or less keep the ABC-countries and most of SA pretty much as OTL? If one just tune down their financial situation somewhat and ramp up the local tensions a bit one will end up with a more interesting situation imo. If the SA countries feel surrounded by potential enemies they will all be seeking foreign support and patronage opening up great opportunities for proxy conflict and intrigue for players from the moment the sim start. It will also reduce the workload of the moderator in the world building as there will be much smaller need to describe the region in detail (which would be necessary for diplomatic interaction with the states in the region).

Because the objective is to give people something to do?  If we are going to be realistic most of Africa other than the southern Cape is WORTHLESS fever swamp & jungles.  We have made much of east Asia Player controlled.  So for areas to expand to we will have the following.

South America south of Gran Columbia, Africa south of the Sahara, India and SE Asia.

Michael

   

[Korpen]

Because the objective is to give people something to do? 

In what way is trying to acquire a de facto satellite state not doing something?
Going around putting down flags sounds far less interesting then trying to get the maximum amount of money from Brazil in return for minimum amount of assistance against a Texas-backed Argentina for example.
It would also be fun with a NPC region were the unscrupulous arms dealers can have a field day! :)

If we are going to be realistic most of Africa other than the southern Cape is WORTHLESS fever swamp & jungles. 

Pretty much yes, but as most colonies in Africa were the effect of political rather then economical ambitions it is not like that matter much.