Other Costs

[Carthaginian]

Blooded, if you play D&D... do you make people keep track of how many rocks they have for their slings?

Hell yeah I do!   ;D
Reality... nah not really... BUT I can tell you how many I have!  ;)

Where do we draw the line guys? Do we start counting SHELLS? Or do we assume that ALL ammunition is included in the ship's upkeep- after all, there's a damnable reason that DD's and subs are more expensive. :)

Somewhere, someone has to sit down and ask not "Can we accurately simulate this" but "Is it FUN to accurately simulate this... or can it be glossed over a bit."

[Carthaginian]

Tan, I'm not sure I can agree with that. You can mass-produce shells; however, it's not really possible to mass produce torpedoes. Just too many variables.

I think you missed a couple of world wars and everything after them, Tex.
Torpedoes are mass-produced, man... hell, entire SHIPS were mass produced.

[Tanthalas]

its not realy an issue for me, as everyone knows im not a huge destroyer freak (ok so I end up with great fleats of the things its just because I never scrap them), and odds are I will never even fight a battle using Torps... most likley my DDs will be used with my CLs to screan my battlecruiser er that would be Battleship force.  still I think that we are trying to get to complex personaly

[Desertfox]

Realism helps define what is possible in our physics parameters. If DF wants to build John Fishers wetdream fleet it should be possible to a degree(would any real government back that sort of plan? If yes... then go for it! If No then.... compromise like GB did ). If 'Bob' wants to build Bismarck in 1900 then NO! that is simply not a realistic proposition. Even if SS says it is possible.

Why am I being singled out...?

I propose adding, at least, torpedos into the 'extra cost' mix because they will factor into so many defensive plans
which will be based on tiny vessels destroying fleets of large ones with solely torpedo armament. Reality proved that NO-ONE had the nerve to close to 1000 yards to deliver the needed payload. But with our battle systems Torpedos are hitting at amazing rates! They are FEATURED too much! Reality showed that in WW1 NO(or extremely few!) hits happened to ships travelling at 15knots or more. N3 solution... all my ships cruise at 15knots.... thus are impervious to torpedos! (What a Godsend!)

Perhaps the problem isn't the economic system but the battle system... ;)

Yes, I was the most vocal proponent of torpedoes in N-verse. But can you blame me? I lost the greatest amount of warships to torpedoes, heck at one point in time all my losses where due to torpedoes. And yes I do agree that torpedoes where way too effective. And btw I launched my "ASB" airstrike, after I had been the victim of a similar airstrike.

[TexanCowboy]

Yeah, NOW they are.

I'm not so sure it's that easy to mass produce torpedoes. Japan suffered from shortages the entire war; America had policies that PREVENTED firing exercises up to World War II, cause they were so expensive to produce.

A 235 ton torpedo boat with 4 torpedo tubes cost the navy 235,000 to produce in the 1890s. The cost of a torpedo at that time was about $2,000, each. Hmm....ok, maybe I overestimated the cost. Still, for each non-dud, $4,000...

Ok, scratch that. Maybe we shouldn't keep track of them.

Blooded: "Upon agreement in 1892, the Navy contracted with Bliss to manufacture 100 Whitehead torpedoes at a unit price of $2,000. This action represented tacit admission by the Navy of the Whitehead torpedo's superiority."

Maybe we're overestimated the need to track them.

[Tanthalas]

but DF you lost so many ships to torpedos based on the shear stupid numbers of them launched at you... FFS TBs were blowing eachother up launching on you, Torpedos were blowing up other torpedos...

[Desertfox]

Not really: 12.5% at the Battle of Yantai (1st Chinese War), 25% another 1st Chinese War Battle, 100% at the Indian Ocean incident vs French, 12.5% at one of the Solomon Battles vs the DKB, ~10% at the 1st Rift Battle (airstrike). Also got a few ships torpedoed on the high seas by Holland type subs.

[ctwaterman]

*ROTFLMAO*

Ok I will not that durring the first rift battle all the Alled DD and Cruisers sunk were sunk without firing their toredoes... figure out what happens when over 200 Torps should have been fired back at your Light Cruisers at least :)

But yes the Mods will be assigning a Dud Percentage and a malfunction percentage to each generation of Torpedoes.   For now I dont see a reason to track them because with the new economic system we are still talking a very small percentage of ones Defense Budget.

Charles

[Blooded]

Howdy,

I think you missed a couple of world wars and everything after them, Tex.
Torpedoes are mass-produced, man... hell, entire SHIPS were mass produced.

i LOVE YOU cARTH BuT....

NOTHING was mass produced in the 1880s... Model T's started in 1908. Generally considered the first MASS produced Item.

My Data(1940ish) for torps shows a cost of $100 for a main gun BB shell(16"?) and $50,000 for a G7e(German electric Torp) that kind of difference needs to be discussed.

[TexanCowboy]

Of course, some of the difference is caused by batteries, those things were expensive as heck.

[Blooded]

Could be... Hell they STILL cost TOO damn much for Hybrids!  :)

[Tanthalas]

*starts looking around for his "Rules Bat"*

[Carthaginian]

Howdy,

I think you missed a couple of world wars and everything after them, Tex.
Torpedoes are mass-produced, man... hell, entire SHIPS were mass produced.

i LOVE YOU cARTH BuT....

NOTHING was mass produced in the 1880s... Model T's started in 1908. Generally considered the first MASS produced Item.

My Data(1940ish) for torps shows a cost of $100 for a main gun BB shell(16"?) and $50,000 for a G7e(German electric Torp) that kind of difference needs to be discussed.

Uhm, I did SPECIFICALLY mention 'a couple of world wars' now didn't I Blooded.
I am very well aware of when things became available through mas production... but Tex is acting like torps weren't historically mass produced- and they were, for a very long time.

[Blooded]

Well....

You keep mentioning 'Modern type' stuff....

We are talking 130 years ago... that is a damn long time... nothing WE relate to even existed.

POV= Well aren't I a little bitch.  ;D    Old timers are tough beyond belief in my book.... ;)

[Carthaginian]

Well....

You keep mentioning 'Modern type' stuff....

We are talking 130 years ago... that is a damn long time... nothing WE relate to even existed.

POV= Well aren't I a little bitch.  ;D    Old timers are tough beyond belief in my book.... ;)

I'm talking about 130 years ago- large production batches of interchangeable parts.
"Mass Production" and "Assembly Line Production" are two related but separate concepts, you know. Mass Production in and of itself is not dependent upon the assembly line. And honestly, an assembly line is not dependent on mass production- witness such limited production vehicles as the Rolls-Royce, which are put together on an assembly line (of sorts) though not in a mass-produced manner (not with one man doing a single step over and over).

The Springfield Armory is the best example of this which I can think of. By the 1850's, you could take a part from any of thousands of the service rifles in the United States military and exchange it with the same part from an identical rifle, and it would still function.

Torpedoes were created in a similar manner- mass produced parts assembled in craft shops into finished products which would allow for part-swapping between units.

No, there was no motorized 'assembly line'... but Liberty Ships (later, but hardly 'modern') were also mass-produced without being on a physical assembly line.