1880 - How to start the Navy?

[Jefgte]

I think, if we start with 0 warships that it is neccessary to built quantity first.

With much coasts to protect, I think to start with:
- 1880-81 - CLs/gunboats - 6x4"7-16kts
- 1882 - CLs - 6x6"-16kts
- 1883 - ACs - 4x8"- 16kts
- 1884 - BBs - 4x11" - 16kts

Small TB from 50 to 100t built in double qty of the CLs-ACs.

All ships equiped with sails to economise coal.

Jef

[Darman]

1880s gunboat HMS Wasp

HMS Banterer, Great Britain Screw Gunboat laid down 1880
Corvette (Unarmoured)

Displacement:
   412 t light; 421 t standard; 465 t normal; 500 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   125.00 ft / 125.00 ft x 23.50 ft x 10.00 ft (normal load)
   38.10 m / 38.10 m x 7.16 m  x 3.05 m

Armament:
     2 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 91.80lbs / 41.64kg shells, 1880 Model
     Muzzle loading guns in broadside mounts
     on side, all forward
     2 - 4.00" / 102 mm guns in single mounts, 27.20lbs / 12.34kg shells, 1880 Model
     Breech loading guns in broadside mounts
     on side, all aft
     2 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.05lbs / 0.02kg shells, 1880 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 238 lbs / 108 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 0

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, simple reciprocating steam engines,
   Direct drive, 1 shaft, 226 ihp / 169 Kw = 9.50 kts
   Range 1,250nm at 9.50 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 79 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   49 - 65

Cost:
   £0.046 million / $0.184 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 30 tons, 6.4 %
   Machinery: 47 tons, 10.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 264 tons, 56.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 53 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 71 tons, 15.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     468 lbs / 212 Kg = 5.1 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 0.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.00
   Metacentric height 0.6 ft / 0.2 m
   Roll period: 13.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 82 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.95
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.554
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.32 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 11.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 41
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Mid (50 %):      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Stern:      10.00 ft / 3.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 77.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 1,997 Square feet or 186 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 66 lbs/sq ft or 323 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.16
      - Longitudinal: 12.24
      - Overall: 1.47
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

71 tons sails/rigging (15% displacement)

Edit: I fudged the layout of the guns and the size of the "machine guns" (probably Gatlings?). 

[snip]

so question to the mods: Are we going to have a time period to build up our pre-1880 navy, or are we assuming that everyone starts with 0 ships on day 1?

[Darman]

I was wondering the same, I'd even be happy with zero ships in 1880 and have to build completely from scratch.  If we were to have ships built beforehand there would have to be a tonnage/hull limitation. 
Oh and I posted the gunboat sort of as an "I agree" answer to Jefgte's post. 

[Carthaginian]

Well, personally, I'm going back a 'generation' to plan for my existing fleet.

Since we are planning to start at the pre-dreadnought era, I'm planning a navy with a handful of central battery ironclads (between 8000t std and 9000t std). As I am envisioning Acadia as a 'colonial nation' recently independent from her mother country, these ships will not be perfect or top of the line, but will rather be second-raters.

For dealing with 'protection of commerce on the high seas,' I'm planning a dozen or so 'cruising corvettes' (2000t std or so) and an equal number of 'patrol corvettes' (between 750t std and 1000t std). These will all vary in laydown year from 1870-1880, and will feature modest armament and armor schemes.

I might consider some breastwork monitors or turret ships for harbor defense- these would be constructed as afterthoughts, using any 'leftover tonnage' from my projected build plan. Such vessels will be very powerful, but will have all the appropriate 'glaring defects' for ships of their types.

Finally, I'll make my only forward-looking decision- which of the vessels that I have constructed during this pre-start buildup will wind up serving out their obsolescence as my first icebreakers. I'll then fold, spindle and mutilate the springsharp in question to produce a vessel (or vessels) to keep my primary ports open during the winter months.

I'd say that we just start with a finite tonnage- say "(initial build capacity) * X" where 'X' is the number of years the mods will allow us to go back and build. Perhaps a percent penalty for each year we go back- 10% or so.

EDIT: Because I'm bored (and because I can), here's one of the ships I plan for the start-up fleet:
http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r114/Carthaginian/N-verse%204/MysteryShip.png



Wonder why it keeps compressing the image?

[Jefgte]

As I remember, our new Navalism restart in 1880.
So, no ship before 1880 & we start the 1st jan 1880 with 0 ships.


Jef

[Nobody]

I was wondering the same, I'd even be happy with zero ships in 1880 and have to build completely from scratch.  If we were to have ships built beforehand there would have to be a tonnage/hull limitation. 
Oh and I posted the gunboat sort of as an "I agree" answer to Jefgte's post. 

Another possibility would be that we start "simming" a few years ahead to see what we have in 1880.

[Darman]

We could start a few years ahead, yes.  I still figure that there needs to be a tonnage limit and it should be the same for everyone. 

[Walter]

I still figure that there needs to be a tonnage limit and it should be the same for everyone.

Something like 'x' tons for 1875 ships, 'y' tons for 1870 ships and 'z' tons for pre 1865 ships?

[Valles]

Assuming that we're talking about, 'Each player gets 60,000 tons of shipping built in Year X, 40,000 built in Year Y, and 20,000 build in Year Z', rather than 'Ships built in Year X are limited to 10,000 tons each, Year Y to 8,000 tons each, and Year Z to 6,000 tons each', I think that the probability of that approaches unity. That was how it was done when I was signing up and setting up Maoria for the first time, even if I made very poor use of the tonnage I got.

[Darman]

I prefer tonnage limits that dictate the size of the navies as opposed to the size of the individual ships. 

[snip]

I prefer tonnage limits that dictate the size of the navies as opposed to the size of the individual ships. 

I second this

As to the intent of the thread: *hides cheesebox-on-a-raft monitors* nothing to see here, move along ;D

[Walter]

'Each player gets 60,000 tons of shipping built in Year X, 40,000 built in Year Y, and 20,000 build in Year Z'

What I meant, though I said it slightly different.

I prefer tonnage limits that dictate the size of the navies as opposed to the size of the individual ships.

... so does that mean you do not want a limit that will prevent people from building 30,000 ton ships in the 1880s? Seems to me that the individual ships need to be limited as well, limited by what history gives us.

[Darman]

'Each player gets 60,000 tons of shipping built in Year X, 40,000 built in Year Y, and 20,000 build in Year Z'

What I meant, though I said it slightly different.

I just wanted to restate it to ensure I understood it correctly.  When I saw Valles' post I had to doublecheck to be sure I'd understood yours correctly. 

I prefer tonnage limits that dictate the size of the navies as opposed to the size of the individual ships.

... so does that mean you do not want a limit that will prevent people from building 30,000 ton ships in the 1880s? Seems to me that the individual ships need to be limited as well, limited by what history gives us.

If someone wants to build a 30,000 tons wood and iron ship.... I say let them.  Chances are it won't quite work out the way they hoped... I would prefer if people didn't do that though, but tried to design ships reasonably. 

[Valles]

A number of designs actually built during the 1880s look fairly unreasonable in hindsight. I'd say that if someone can make a 'titan' design work, more power to them.