Withdrawal

[Kaiser Kirk]

I think that the proper course of action for me is to withdraw from the Navalism4 discussions.

The little bit of what I know of who was proposing what rules before the cloistering, coupled with the indication that there will be a substantial delay, indicates to me that the changes are not minor tweaking of Navalism3, but essentially a new game.

I don't think I should be putting in the work to build a unique nation & timeline, only to then look at the new rules and leave, saddling some following player with the "flavor" I found of interest. Further, this will allow the return of the "Anglo-Saxon"

If France is to be diced up, I would suggest that the GB+Brittany actually be expanded to include Normandy, and possibly Aquitane - perhaps use the territorial extent at the high point of the 100 years war. This would make the combination a bit more robust and further entrenched on the continent, and so less likely to pour a disproportionate amount of funds into a navy.

I've generally enjoyed my time here, and I expect I'll poke my nose in everyso often. Heck, I may find Nav4 actually appealing and ask for a small nation.

Later,
Kirk

[Nobody]

It's sad to hear that. But I agree it would be nice to know the rules already while building the world.

[Carthaginian]

I also would like to see what we are going to be doing before we start doing it.
What parts of the rules have actually been decided?

[Guinness]

the problem with the rules:

we have a pretty good idea of what we want them to be, but we have not yet gotten them all written down in a consumable format. Free time is limited. We went ahead and launched into world building because we actually expected that would take longer than cranking the rules out. Right now I'd say its 50/50 as to what gets "done" first (done being in quotes, since neither is likely to ever be done).

Which rules are we primarily concerned with? Economics? The problem there is ship building rules, ship maint. rules, army rules, research, maritime trade, etc. etc. all inform the economics, so it's a bit of a Gordian knot we're having to untangle.

If we were to get a sort of sketch of the rules, would that help? I fear that if it's not done, that we'll get lost in rule lawyering that we could have done off to the side. I know that not everyone agrees, but I feel strongly the group as a whole is too big to get that effort done effectively.

[Sachmle]

I agree that to many chefs spoil the soup as far as the rules go, but I also can say that just some general 'outline' ideas, so we have a ballpark guess as to which way certain things are likely headed would be nice. As to rule lawyering, that will happen whether the rules are in rough draft or final copy form anyway. There will always be something that someone/a few players/even a group want 'altered'. Look at N3, we were still 'tweeking' the rules 15 game years in.

[Guinness]

There will always be something that someone/a few players/even a group want 'altered'. Look at N3, we were still 'tweeking' the rules 15 game years in.

Yeah, I'm hoping we learned enough from Nverse3 that this won't happen as much in Nverse4.

Free time is an issue, but I'll start on a general draft of everything that can then be reviewed by the smaller group, and then by the larger group. I'm going to be in Cah-lee-foh-nee-ah at a conference all next week, and I don't know that I can get that chore done before then, but it's possible that Mike, Charles, or P3D might be able to take up what I get done and finish it.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Since I made it up, I figured why not share it.  The period of 260-537 is best developed, tying Britanny, Cornwall and Britain together and kicking out the Saxons.

The Celtic Kingdom

History :

So the idea was be the Romans- who never conquered the entire area historically, would be far shorter in dominion, and both the Saxons and Norse would establish toe-holds before being expelled.

The basic premise is that the Roman period was shortened by a successful revolt, with Briton and Britanny being linked as part of the rebel lands.  The OTL 260 AD founding of the Gallic Empire is the first step, but the real point of departure is that it does not get re-conquered.

Then the premise would be Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Birtanny and Briton were largely individual unified Kingdoms by the 400s.  This allowed the Angles/Saxons/Jutes to be repulsed.  These Kingdoms would then form a Gaellic enclave while the rest of the area was overwhelmed by Germanic tribes, lending to the idea of a national identity. Come the Norse invasions, they would resist better and then this alliance would take the form of a "High Kingdom" which then survives the following centuries. 

Then from 1156 onward there would be a semi-unified Kingdom, forged from expelling the Norse. Three mythical concepts were woven in - Ys/Lyonness, Arthur, and Asterix the Gaul.

~4000 bc Neolithic people settle the region

~2500 bc  Founding of Lyonness, a Copper Age Vasconic language speaking culture. Ballybeg axes spread throughout the realm of Lyonness and nearby regions. City of Ys founded as the continental port. 

~2200 bc  Beaker culture spread, bringing bronze age technology with it.

~1700 bc  Prehistoric Tsunami, City of Ys innundated, Lyonness subsides to become Little Sole Bank.   Pre-Celtic civilization is shattered.

~1600 bc  Final development of Stonehenge.

~1500 bc The City of Ys is refounded at the site of Brest.  City of Ys thrives as trade center for Phoenician traders stopping in Brittany on the routes to the Cornish tin mines at Mount St. Micheal, the Welsh copper mines at Great Orme, adn the Irish Copper mines in Co. Kerry and Cork.

~ 700-500 bc  Celtic invasions of Brittany, Britain, and Ireland.

52 BC  Caesar conquers all of Gaul.  All?  Not quite, there is a village in Armorica that continues to hold out, led by Chief Vitalstatistix and his adviser, the Druid Getafix.


Point of Departure : 274- 'Gallic Empire' not reconquered.

260-274 "Gallic Empire" Established under rebel Emperor Postumus. Murder and secession lead to 5 "Emperors" in 14 years.  In 274, Emperor Tetricus II and his son sell out to  Emperor Aurelian and the Gallic army is massacred in the Battle of Châlons.

274 The reconquest of most of the Gallic Empire goes well, excepting portions of Armorica beyond the Siene and Loire Rivers, and a revolt in Briton all under the rebel Faustinus. These areas having been stripped of troops in the dying days of the Gallic Empire. A Brigante revolt in Briton to occupy Faustinus, coupled with German mauraders from Vindelicia (south Germany) call Aurelian away.  Once the germans are subdued, the need to campaign against the Sassinids calls Aurelian away and in 275 Aurelian dies in Thrace.

286-293 Pressed by the Romans, the rump of the Gallic Empire offers the crown to a roman Naval commander of the Manapii tribe, i.e. Belgiac orgin, King Carausian.  King Carausian brings the coastal areas from Amorica to the Rhine and several legions and his fleet with him, allowing the defeat of Emperor Maximillian's navy. Much of Gaul is claimed.

293-296  King Carausian is assassinated by his treasurer Allectus, who makes himself King. Emperor Constantius Chlorus invades Gaul, resiezing the continent, except Armorica, which holds out under the King of Ys and his warchief Asterix. 

296-306  Duke Asclepiodotus of Cornwall takes arms against Allectus, deposing him and is proclaimed the official King of Briton.

273-306  High King "Ard Ri" Fiacha Sraibhtine of Ireland unifies Ireland.

306s – King Coel Hen, King of the Britons succeeds from King Asclepiodotus

370s – Pictish invasions of Briton, Irish Invasions of Wales, Irish Colony on Ll?n Peninsula.
King Cunedda, son-in-law of King Cole, and King of the North Briton Votadini, conquers much of Wales and founds the Kingdom of Gwynnedd. Saxons land in eastern Briton, while Britons colonize former Armorica.





407-417 King Aldroenus of Brittany does not want High Crown of Brittany and Briton, so sends his Brother, King of Cornwall Custennin Gorneu to be King Constantine II of Briton. King Aldroenus's half brother Gorlios becomes King of Cornwall.

410  King Constantine II m. Severa, daughter of Honorius and grandniece of Theodosius I
Honorius recognizes the Independence of the Britons. 
King Constantine has a son Constans (402) from his first marriage, and two sons, Ambrosius Aurelianus (413), and Uter Pendragon (416), with Severa.

414 Constans is sent to a monastery, with the expectation of taking vows.

417-455  Constantine's Schneshal is Vortigen.  When Constantine dies, a succession crisis occurs.  Constans has taken vows as a monk, and Ambrosius and Uter are too young.  Vortigen crowns the former monk Constans in London and rules through him as a puppet King.

420 Following the 'accidental' death of Constans, Vortigen claims the Crown.  Dissidents spring up, and the very young Ambrosius and Uter are spirited away to Brittany for safe keeping.

430 In an effort to secure the crown, Vortigen invites Saxon as Mercenaries to Britain, granting them Thanet, Kent.

437 Battle of Guoloph, a returned King Ambrosius Aurelianus defeats Vortigen's Saxon invasion and strengthens his hold on Western Briton.

453-455 Vortigen's son, Vortimer, rejects his father's Saxon allies, deposes Vortigen and takes the Crown for himself.

455 Battle of Alyesford.  Saxons slay Vortimer, exile Vortigen to Pictland and seize Sussex and Essex.

460 King Ambrosius and his warband leader, Uter sack the fortress Vortigen holds, slaying Vortigen. At the victory feast, Uter, now 43, falls in love with Gorlios's new bride-to-be Igraine, a soon to be 2nd wife

461 Bringing war against Gorlios, Uter attempts to sieze Cornwall and Igraine and sieges Gorlios. Uter turns to the druid Myrddin to aid him.  Disguised, he begets Artgur. Gorlios dies in battle elsewhere that night. 

462 Uter marries Igraine, Artgur born, Morgause, daughter of Gorlios adopted. Morgause will later marry King Lot and become mother to Gawain and Mordred. 

460-534 Cadwallon ap Einion unites Wales under the Kingdom of Gwynnedd

470 King Ambrosius Aurelianus, now  rules Briton and battles the Saxons.  Invited to Armorica to defend it against the Visigoths under Euric, he is named "Riothamus" or Highest King of Britons. Armorica becomes Brittany.   

471 King Ambrosius is poisoned while Uter is campaigning against Vortigern's son Paschent and his Saxon allies. Uter takes the crown, campaigns in Brittany and battles Saxons. Takes the title Uter Pendragon.

474- Fergus Mór mac Eirc, King of Dál Riata, extends his rule over Pictland. Stone of Scone established.

476 Battle of Verulamium, Uter Pendragon defeats the Saxons. After the battle, Saxons manage to poison the well at the Briton camp, Uter and many warriors die.

The 14 year old Artgur's claim to the throne is disputed.  King Artgur wins a trial of strength and combat. Taking the druid Myrddin , he adopts his father's round table and creates a "war band" modeled on the Fianna and adopting their mottos :
•   Purity of our hearts
•   Strength of our limbs
•   Action to match our speech

Elsewhere, the Roman Empire Falls, the Dark Ages begin.

476-517, King Artgur and the "Knights of the Round Table" campaign in Briton and Brittany against the Germanic mauraders. Facing the onslaught, alliances are struck with King Fergus Mór mac Eirc, King Cadwallon ap Einion and  Artgur becomes Penteyrnedd yr Ynys hon, "Chief of the Lords of this Island", Ruling Brittany, Briton, Wales, and Scotland.

517, Battle of Mount Badon, Saxons decisively Defeated by Artgur.

D534 High King Muirchertach mac Muiredaig dies

537, Battle of Camlann, King Artgur, now 76, slain. (similar age as Brian Boru) 


1011           Ard Rhi Brian Boru proclaimed Emperor of the Irish. Rallies Ireland to fend off the Viking invasions.

1014           Battle of Clontarf is an Irish Victory, but 73-year old Brian Boru is slain in battle along with his son Murchad.  Vikings repulsed from Ireland. 

1014-1023  Irish High King Tadc Ua Briain expels the Vikings from their fortified camps.  Assassinated by his half brother Donnchad, who claims the High Kingship and regency for his 14-year old nephew.

1016           Responding to entreaties for aid, Ard Rhi Tadc leads a force of Irish to Breton, there they join with the Bretons in defeating and slaying Cnut the Great at Penselwood.

1050-1063  Civil war splinters Ireland. Toirdhealbhach Ua Briain leads revolt against his uncle, eventually prevailing and claiming the High Kingship again, finally beating the O'Neills and reunifying the island in 1075. 

1080 - 1119   Muircheartach Ua Briain takes Crown of Ireland.

1120 - 1156   Toirdhealbhach Ua Conchobhair proclaimed High King of the Isles.

[ctwaterman]

Now that is a nice spin on history and I could even work with it  The Expelled Angles and Saxons hmmm were did they go they had to go somewhere ??

[Carthaginian]

That's a really good question- too early for a mass-migration over the Atlantic.
Perhaps they languished in their native Schleswig-Holstein for some time, until mercenary work from the Vikings became available. Some Angles and Saxons found their way to the New World in Viking exploration parties, established a few (more successful than OTL) settlements, and developed into something of a power on their own. After finding iron ore near one of their settlements, they began producing their own domestic iron in time for the end of the Medieval Warm Period and the end of Viking exploration.
This Anglo-Saxon culture developed in something of a vacuum: never learning about the secrets of gunpowder, ship rudders, magnetic compasses, or pendulum-driven clocks. Their knowledge of iron-working placed them above the local tribals, who were unable to pierce their armor with stone weapons. The Anglo-Saxons expanded well until they reached the endless 'Meer des Grases.' The Saxons thrived, keeping the secret of iron-working from the tribals until well into the 1600's.


This would have the effects of 1.) placing an Anglo-Saxon civilization on North America, 2.) colonization being more difficult by having a group of metal-working civilization to fight, 3.) producing a unifying force for the American natives to explain why a well-developed 'Indian Confederation' exists in North America.

[Borys]

Ahoj!

I do not believe ANY connection could be drawn between who migrated where (or not) in 400-500, and the High Viking Age half a thousand years later.

So, where did they go?


Possibilities:
1 - some Angles settle between the mouth of the Seine and Brittany - nowadays it is called England and divided into historic West and East Anglia, with capitals at Scherburg and Kain, respectively ... ;
2 - some Angles form Kingdom of Deira, latter gobbled up by Rìoghachd na h-Alba*. Maybe even Bernicia was also created, latter to be absorbed by the Kingdom of Yorvik, providing a large part of its non-Celtic speaking population, and thus making this part of the island speak a Germanic language even today;
3 - stronger tide of Frankish/Germanic colonisation of Gaul. Either the "Germanic colonisation of Britain" never-weres join the Frankish push West, or - due to there being more Saxons  - these give the Franks a (stronger) kick westwards. The result is the same - the SW border of Flanders is the River Somme, with OTL Artois and Picardy being Vlaams speaking;

* - better known as Kingdom of Scotland
Borys

[Kaiser Kirk]

I hadn't expected anyone to run with it , just figured to share the concept. I'm tickled about turning Arthur into a plausible historical figure.

Bory's idea expanded to most of Northern France sounds good. Have Charlemange appear, unify everything, but his Empire disintigrate as historical. Then toss in the Norse a bit later and you have a Celtic->Roman->Frank->Saxon->Norse culture which is sufficiently similar to "English" to serve as that source. Then bolster the Burgundians and France can reasonably kept from unifying as single Kingdom and dominating Europe. 

While that does make the Franco-Prussian war difficult as a German unifying event, Perhaps "Burgundy" took that place, or who's to say the 1866 Austrian-Prussian war didn't lead to similar results, or perhaps a Russia came west.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Frankish_Empire_481_to_814-en.svg
or
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Central_Europe_5th_Century.jpg

The Franks could suffer a catastrophic defeat in the east around 530, with all the following happening at ONCE:
- a Swabian revolt, backed by Bavars;
- a Burgundian attack/revolt;
- a revolt in Acquitania, creating a local "Roman" kingdom; This can be headed by one of the myriad of Merowingian princes.
- the Saxons ally with the Thuringians and kick out the Franks from the east bank of the Rhine*;

This would make Austrasia predominantly Frankish speaking, with the Latin speaking enclaves gradually being assimilated. Neustria will be the reverse, with pockets of Frankish settlement being absorbed by Latin speakers (i.e. OTL).

If at some point later the ATL England expands to encompass Neustria/ the Kingdom of Siagrius, I can see a case for the formation of a Germanic language with a mostly Latin vocabulary, i.e. OTL "English".

Burgundy and Aquitania would use Latin-derived languages, of course.

* - in OTL the Saxons allied with the Franks to destroy and divide the Thuringian Kingdom between themselves.

Borys

[Kaiser Kirk]

Ahoj!
In the "Withdrawal" thread we are planning a Gross-Sachsen*, so the future will speak Platt-Deutsch!
Or Vlaams!
Hmm, but a Letzerburgisch speaking future is another tempting possibility :D

* the "real" Sachsen, by the North Sea :)
Borys

While fun, and you've made some interesting suggestions. I hadn't realized that Brittany wasn't part of Charlamagne's Empire. Apparently it wasn't part of France until 1532- fairly late.  However it's all moot, as it appears Guinness is going with a much more historical timeline- which is part of why I withdrew, and Miketr is marching his European troops on and intends to have France dismembered in the 1870s- or just before Nav4 starts.   So Europe will be pretty much the historical Europe.

[ctwaterman]

Hey I was willing to work with a Celtic Britain....

I was just trying to figure out how to Say.. "Y'all com'n back now Y'a heer" In Gaelic... :o

[Borys]

Ahoj!
You can start training:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJadJs7oPm8
And I will nitpick - Gaelic is the Celtic language used by the Irish and Scots. The real Britons would be speaking Brythonic, i.e. Welch or Breton.
So you should be listening to:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4Lr1teYgME

BTW - the sound of Celtic languages makes me think of Nederlands/Vlaams or Swedish.

Borys