Asia Buildup

[P3D]

There won't be borders and island possessions drawn such as they'd block the communication lines for two possible players, and players won't have starting possessions in areas defined "colonial" like Indonesia.

[Valles]

Borys's chosen position is going to have its sea lanes open to Japanese interdiction whatever you do; this is implicit in their relative locations. Who owns Taiwan won't make a difference.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/asia-valles-v06.png

[P3D]

"Japanese" Korea will not happen in N4verse, sorry. Taiwan is also  claimed by the North "Chinese", Central "Chinese" and South "Chinese" nations so who will get it is not decided yet.

And I will call the nation occupying the OTL Honshu-Shikoku-Hokkaido-etc. islands "Japan" for the time being.

[Guinness]

Some more issues here: we need to cram at least one more and maybe two more players into Asia if we can. Also, we're starting to think the Philippines should be "whitespace" at the start. So let's think about solving both if we can.

My guess is the solution is a fractured "China" for one thing. We should probably endeavor to use most of OTL Mainland China, and possibly some of OTL Russia. Borys' nation probably needs more territory on the Sea of Okhotsk.

So let's put heads together and figure this out. We really probably need 6 player states plus some small fry npcs if necessary in this region.

[Valles]

The building program I want to carry out in the 'dreadnought era' calls for a roughly balanced fleet program including five battleships under construction at any given time, effectively indefinitely (seven BB classes intended). Getting myself in position for this 'dream fleet' is a large part of my thinking in regards to N4. It's fairly self-evident that no starting position acceptable to the mods or other players is going to be capable of supporting that without expanding.

I can live with that.

In my 'ideal world', the needed expansion would come without more than 'coincidental' wars with other 'powers' - I have no real desire to get involved in another potentially OOC-contentious 'war to the finish'; even in N3, the presence of such was an inescapable part of the 'most likely' logic I could find based on the blank-slate situation I was handed, and in retrospect I'd've twisted my logic farther away from plausiblity in order to avoid the hassle.

Unfortunately, I also have no interest in climbing on board the 'foreign colonies' barge, and the approach to 'motivating' such to date has hardened that initial disinterest into full-bore active hostility.

I will not, under any circumstances, permit myself to be pushed in conquering New Zealand, Argentina, or where-the-fuck-ever else completely outside my desired sphere of influence.

The effect of removing 'white space' from East Asia will not directly prevent my building a 'continental' empire; it will force me into the position of the 'bad guy' who is doing so over the corpses of other player nations.

I can live with that, too, even if I'd rather not.

But I'd be remiss in my responsibility to the game as a whole and to my fellow players if I didn't recognize and warn of the potential that holds to be a problem.

That said, how does this look as a take on 'Four Kingdoms' China?

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c386/valles_uf/asia-valles-v07.png

The 'kingdoms' are effectively centered around the North China Plain, the Sichuan Basin, the lower Yangtze, and the Pearl River watershed - Capitals Beijin, Nanjing, Chengdu, and probably Hong Kong.

I gave Korea the Shangdong peninsula partly to increase its strength/area/population closer to 'par' for a player state in the region and partly because Confucious was supposedly born there, and Korea was historically the most profoundly and absolutely 'Confucian' state.

[miketr]

Who or what is the Green nation away from the ocean?

Michael

[Valles]

One of the four Chinese splinter states, effectively centered on the real world's Sichuan province, which is itself centered on a fertile basin surrounded by mountains.

Or it should be, if I have my mapping right.

[snip]

*wanders over from NA build thread*

Could be expanded to serve as and NPC buffer to continental expansion by the coastal "Chinas"

[Logi]

The Southern state should be centered around Guangzhou rather than Hong Kong. Before the British took over Hong Kong, it was just a fishing village like any other. Guangzhou has a much lengthier history and has served as capital for the southern kingdoms (before assimilation into China).

[Valles]

*makes note*

Right, thanks. Sorry, my 'Pre-Modern China' course is supposed to start this fall, so I'm shakier than I'd like on such details.

[miketr]

One of the four Chinese splinter states, effectively centered on the real world's Sichuan province, which is itself centered on a fertile basin surrounded by mountains.

Or it should be, if I have my mapping right.

Well Central Asia is what it is, dust bowl land and hardly the center of the world.  That said the idea is in keeping with the mods intentions.

Michael

[Guinness]

Well, right off, what do those players currently slated for Asia say about Valles' last map?

Valles: I've got to say that everything you've posted about Nverse4 so far has ranged from negative, to snarky, to downright hostile. I'm sorry if what we've come up with so far isn't to your liking. In the past you've written various things that have given me the opinion that you have a viewpoint about histories various colonizations and conquests being "wrong" on a moral level. Is it just that you'd prefer to build up a nation somewhere on your own without interference from other players, or is this more born out of some philosophical issue with colonization in general? I'm trying to get a handle on where you are coming from.

[Valles]

I do not think of myself, overall, as being 'hostile' to N4. Yes, there are aspects of the setting that I would prefer to have seen arranged otherwise, but those questions are settled, and I'm content to have them so. I'm quite curious about and looking forward to the unveiling of the new rule system, and overall I'm having a good time working on establishing the pre-game history of East Asia. I'm enjoying the idea of having Borys for a neighbor, since we really haven't talked much before, and so forth.

I don't mind, really, that I'll probably be opposing other players - that'd be the case even if I was trying to spread into 'white space', due to the competition for territory. I'm concerned that the 'life or death' nature of the struggles I expect given my lack of white space to expand into will cause bad blood out of character.

Colonization, qua colonization, is something I admit I have mixed feelings about; overall, I'd say that my viewpoints are informed by an emotional preference for construction and preservation over destruction, and the knowledge that colonization often worked, or was intended to work, by knocking down existing 'inferior' governmental and social structures in favor of imported ones. My disinterest in carrying it out myself as a player nation, however, is based less on moral concerns - as I've said, I'm perfectly prepared to adopt the in-character 'mode' of a bloody-handed conquerer of civilized states, just like, oh, Nazi Germany - and more on a disinterest in repeating a theme that has already been played out in real history. Colonization good, colonization evil, who cares? Colonization boring.

My vehemance on the subject of enforced colonization stems from an ongoing, mmm, movement, among my fellow players, which has always been one of my main beefs with N3: the tendancy, when I try to do something that I feel makes sense in the context of the game but which did not happen OTL, of someone or other to go, 'But that's not historical. You shouldn't do that.'

'What does historical case x share with Navalism case y?' I ask. (Or would ask, or should ask - I can be as unclear as anyone, I admit!) 'What is the principle or logic that makes this unlikely?'

'It didn't happen. It's not historical. You shouldn't do that.'

'...That's not an answer to my question.'

'It's wrong. It's not historical.'

And so on.

The 'overseas colonies' structuring of the starting positions looks, to me, like another case of people going 'This is historical, and therefore that's how you should do it' over and over without ever even bothering to explain why it should be neccessary, or, if not neccessary, why their favored playstyle should be enforced on the whole game.

And, yes, that gets my back up a bit.

I'm not being hostile to the idea of people having overseas colonies; I'm being hostile - probably more so than I was intending, if I've gotten this reaction! - to the idea that that's all that people should be able to have. Perhaps that's not what the mods intend; perhaps that's not what anyone intends - but it's what I expect things to come to in the end. Many, even most, of my arguments have been aimed at heading the 'historical precedent' logic off as early and as permanently as possible, so that I and other players who want to explore the world that Navalism actually is rather than a reflection of 'real' history will be able to do so without having to constantly fight for the privledge.

Is my 'vow' to attack other players before adopting the 'intended' route to expansion rude and somewhat antisocial? Yes, it probably is. Sorry about that - if I had another option that I thought would work, I'd take it.

But, in my mind, it's substantially less rude than trying to directly dictate another player's 'style' of play. If there are logical factors supporting why a certain style should be taken, then by all means they should be aired, to either be adopted or adapted around, depending on the choice of the individual players.

But if such evidence has been aired here, it's flown right by my notice.

[Borys]

Ahoj!

Borys' nation probably needs more territory on the Sea of Okhotsk.

I'm not sure ... holding the mouth of the Amur gives me access to that sea, and it's 5 months ice bound anyway.
Borys

[Walter]

holding the mouth of the Amur gives me access to that sea, and it's 5 months ice bound anyway.

That means that for 5 months of the year, you do not need to worry about an enemy fleet sailing into the sea and threaten your coasts from that area. :D