Europe Buildup

[Nobody]

How do we have Germanic Unification and a shattering of France? 

This just crossed my mind:
The war which resulted in the German unification in 1871 was caused and declared by France.
Realizing they couldn't stop the combined German forces marching through Alsace-Lorraine some smart leaders declared  themselves independent from Paris to negotiate better terms. As a result France breaks apart. Since there was no need anymore to invade Paris, the coronation takes place in Aachen.

P.S.:
Just realized that I have to correct my map.

[Jefgte]

For Iberia I suggest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Union

:D Cool, Im back in Peru & Argentina   ;)
-------------------

But I m not cool with the minor status of France  >:(
Britons are in Brest >:(


Jef

[Barcaii]

I like the Idea of italy being basicly just the Papal states but bigger. But for them to have succeded in that i think they might have needed some substantial outside force helping them. Could be fun if someone wants to have been that force, giving an oppertunity to tie in our history a bit more in europe.

[Nobody]

My updated map. (Lorraine)

[Guinness]

Can we go ahead and pencil in an Austria like thing for Sachmle too, just to see. Leave those rump npcs next to Byzantium the way they are, and leave Switzerland neutral, but otherwise include Austria, Hungary, what's there from the Czech and Slovak republics, etc.

Oh and Kirk: just doublechecking: did you want Ireland?

[miketr]

I can do so later this afternoon, figure after 2 unless someone can do it sooner. The outline of A-H is actually there already so it wouldn't be hard at all.

Michael

[Guinness]

Yeah, sorry, I'm having a hard time picturing it is all. European dirt all looks the same to me I guess.  ;)

[Barcaii]

Historicly, who would be good allies for the papal states? I know there where french troops that aided the holy see but seeing as there is no real france left I don't think that is a viable option. :/

[Guinness]

Well, we could decide that the French were their allies (oops!). So now they're left having to make new friends. Alliances will happen, probably early on, but given how much we're going to be screwing with history, they need not be OTL historical alliances.

[Sachmle]

Penciled in Austria.
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/Sachmle/AustrianEmpire.png

I like the idea of the NPCs between Austria and Byzantium. Also, going off what Miketr has so far for a Byzantine history it makes sense that Austria and Byzantium would not be the best of friends, what with Serbia, Hungary, etc being fought over/swapped back and forth.

Barcaii, I could see Austria being the one who helped considering the high number of good Catholics, and the fact that to have access to the sea they would have to play nice with either Byzantium (see above) or whoever controls Italy's southern tip. So, make nice w/ the Pope (likelihood of Byzantium calling a Crusade on you is less) and Papal States controls southern Italy. If Italy and Byzantium were both upset with Austria, they blockade the Strait of Otranto and Austria has to either fight both, or can't get out of the Adriatic. Makes politics VERY important.

[miketr]

Penciled in Austria.
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/Sachmle/AustrianEmpire.png

Perfect

I like the idea of the NPCs between Austria and Byzantium. Also, going off what Miketr has so far for a Byzantine history it makes sense that Austria and Byzantium would not be the best of friends, what with Serbia, Hungary, etc being fought over/swapped back and forth.

Yes as I said do a mental adjustment of Byzantium for Ottoman Empire from 1453 onwards.  With Byzantium attempting two sieges of Vienna to break into central Europe before the long slow roll back occurred.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Vienna

In the Med I would say the Sultanate of Egypt is what raced across the Med.

Some minor issues to deal with is that since Byzantium is alive and well Eastern Orthodoxy is much stronger and more centralized.  The Patriarch of Constantinople never fell under Muslim control and is still under the thumb of Emperor.  So the Patriarch of Constantinople is more of Pope Light rather than the primus inter pares that is the relationship today of the Patriarch compared to other Orthodox church leaders. 

Of course since the Schism of 1054 Catholics and Orthodox really don't get along very well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East-West_Schism

This combined with Byzantium official stance that IT IS ROME and all former Roman Territory is rightful its means that relations with Catholic States in Western and Central Europe are odds are not that close.

At the same time this dislike is very, very old and not really hot in feeling.  Diplomatic meetings start off with hour or longer lists of wrongs chucked at one another going back a thousand years or more.  Then serious business can happen.  In matters of Realpolitik deals can and will happen, Byzantium is a firm believer in that.

Barcaii, I could see Austria being the one who helped considering the high number of good Catholics, and the fact that to have access to the sea they would have to play nice with either Byzantium (see above) or whoever controls Italy's southern tip. So, make nice w/ the Pope (likelihood of Byzantium calling a Crusade on you is less) and Papal States controls southern Italy. If Italy and Byzantium were both upset with Austria, they blockade the Strait of Otranto and Austria has to either fight both, or can't get out of the Adriatic. Makes politics VERY important.

Sounds good.

Michael

[Sachmle]

I agree totally on the "Orthodox vs Catholic" issue and using Byzantium as a direct swap for the Ottomans makes sense as well.

[Sachmle]

Is there a version of the original map that labels the 'parts'? I'm having a hard time telling what's what as far as the little segments.

[Guinness]

nope. I've been resorting to googling for maps of various places where I need them. In a lot of cases the subdivisions don't seem to match, or at least don't match very closely actual political subdivisions.

[miketr]

Is there a version of the original map that labels the 'parts'? I'm having a hard time telling what's what as far as the little segments.

The map is sorta for 19th century political sub divisions and again only sorta.

Best I can suggest is fudge it.

Michael