Europe Buildup

[Barcaii]

I wonder about the posibility of an Italian Corsica now that there is no unified France and the promixity to Sardinia.

[Korpen]

OK so how do we have unification of Scandinavia and Iberia?

Nordic, not Scandinavia. In strict use "Scandinavia" is just Norway and Sweden, in more general use Denmark is included as well. Nordic adds Finland and Iceland.

For Nordic I believe Korpen was thinking along the lines of a Dynastic union between Sweden Norway and Denmark. Finland is easy enough, the Sweds never loose it I guess or get it back at some point.

Yes,
And I prefer the request borders for Finland to be the full extent of the grand duchy (that includes Viborg) rather then the post ww2 one on the map. So the border should be on the Karelian Isthmus.  

N and me are still discussing the border in Schwelsig, but it seems that any white spot in between is out. This will have a major impact on exactly how a union between Sweden and Denmark would com into being (Sweden and Norway was already in Union at this time).

Iceland & Greenland would still be parts of the United Nordic Kingdoms (as the claim is over 900 years old, and not worth to challenge for anyone).
Oh, and the Faroe Islands.

[snip]

question for all the Euro builders: Is Russia going to exist roughly as historical? I am planing on basing my nations culture off of an expanded Russian Colonization effort, so I would like Russia to be roughly historical if possible.

[miketr]

In the west the Mods plan is to break Russia into at least two sections.  If its Poland-Lithuania & Russia, Russia and Ukraine, Golden Horde and Russia, who knows yet but there will be something there and it will be NPC.

Michael

[snip]

As long as there is someone Russian who can colonise my little corner of NA, I am fine

[miketr]

One thing to keep in mind when you save the image file PLEASE make sure you don't reduce the image quality.  Sam's A-H map was of reduced quality for whatever reason and it added pixel artifacts with the province borders. It might have been photo buck, I don't know.

OK I made the changes for Nordic Land, put in Austria-Hungary, added Savoy to Italy, added Switzerland and other neutral blobs in western Europe.  I broke up France into its language groups.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/31/Romance_20c_en.png

Again the intention is that there will be a Persian Empire of Iran - Iraq (Mesopotamia), Sultanate of Egypt, Holy-land, Syria, Arabia and odds are Libya.  We haven't talked about. NW Africa but figure another Muslim power is there.

The idea for the Suez Canal is that it is there and Egypt owns it.  They allow all nations to use it.  Of course if you attack them.  Expect them to be anti social about access.

One last idea several mods are suggesting is that Byzantium be expanded to include Holy Land and or Mesopotamia.  We will have to see as we are arguing over this one.

Current map.

Note that Northern France should odds are be broken into two more areas.  Or we put a player nation in France.

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/1452/europev5.png

Michael

[miketr]

Copy of comment I made in North America Thread

We have to be careful as I think our Player of Jolly Old England is going all the way back to the Bretons repulse the Saxons, Jutes, and latter the Normans as well.   That does tend to leave those of us who wanted and Anglo Saxon [Anglish] Speaking nation in the lurch because his England still speaks, Galic.... ;D

With that POD you end up with Britain speaking a Celtic influenced Romance Language.  British Romance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brythonic_languages#History_and_origins

The technical name for the Language was Brythonic.

The Anglo-Saxon invasions in effect resulted in a whole-sale linguistic make over of England.  To be blunt the Celtic language and people of the Island were slaughtered and replaced by a West Germanic Language, Culture and People.

What would be here without that invasion is a again a Roman Influenced Celtic,  Brythonic.  

What is needed is to figure out a POD for Roman Britain to hold on its own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_Roman_rule_in_Britain

My own suggestion is that the 3 Legions of the Roman Garrison (or whatever was there in late 300's) never leaves but instead sets up its own British Kingdom. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_Roman_rule_in_Britain#383.E2.80.93388

The Roman Governor and his decedents instead declare themselves not Roman Emperors but rather Kings of Britain.  The legions recruit local, maintain something of their tradition and can hold back the pirate attacks from the Picts, Ireland and Germany.  In time they go on to take over Scotland and Ireland.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Maximus

So there would still be Britannia (latin name of the province) it would just be very different.

Michael

[Korpen]

OK I made the changes for Nordic Land.

Tiny change, with most of the south Jylland province back to Denmark along the modern Danish-German border.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/405/europev5.png/

The Anglo-Saxon invasions in effect resulted in a whole-sale linguistic make over of England.  To be blunt the Celtic language and people of the Island were slaughtered and replaced by a West Germanic Language, Culture and People.

Not really true, no real evidence for wholesale slaughter of the Britons. While this if a matter of debate what happened to the sub-roman population fact seems to indicate that not allot happen with them after the A-S invasions and that is as more a matter of them being integrated into Saxon social forms rather then being removed as a people.

What would be here without that invasion is a again a Roman Influenced Celtic,  Brythonic. 

What is needed is to figure out a POD for Roman Britain to hold on its own.

My suggestion might at once be more and less radical.
The Invasions happened: The Saxons invaded; but the linguistic assimilation did not happen so Brythonic reminded the langue of the common people in most of the lowlands as well as in cymru and remained basically a noble class that over time integrated with the subject population rather then the other way around.
No major changes to the sequence of events in the period of the Dannelag and the early medieval period.
Norman Invasion: Would go ahead as usual, but with a flip; William would be replaced with Conan II, Duke of Brittany (with the needed changes in parents). So instead of getting a new Franco-Norse ruling class there would be a new Brythonic one. And the kingdom would in effect have the same "external" events as England hade from that point.

This would have the effect that it would be possible for other countries to include historic events about their interaction with Brittany with only some changes to names (Third Celto-Dutch War 1672–1674), rather then a need to re-write most of history.
However that should at the same time not put any real shackles on the huge interior changes in the kingdom and its dynamics.
I also think it looks cooler if one shows dynamic changes rather then to try and explain a state of political stasis for 1400 years (which is of course possible in many way other then the one I suggested).

[Kaiser Kirk]

Initial point of Departure was 260AD, I have a timeline partially fleshed out to 537AD.  However, I think I'll make it irrelevant.

Copy of comment I made in North America Thread

We have to be careful as I think our Player of Jolly Old England is going all the way back to the Bretons repulse the Saxons, Jutes, and latter the Normans as well.   That does tend to leave those of us who wanted and Anglo Saxon [Anglish] Speaking nation in the lurch because his England still speaks, Galic.... ;D

With that POD you end up with Britain speaking a Celtic influenced Romance Language.  British Romance

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brythonic_languages#History_and_origins

The technical name for the Language was Brythonic.

The Anglo-Saxon invasions in effect resulted in a whole-sale linguistic make over of England.  To be blunt the Celtic language and people of the Island were slaughtered and replaced by a West Germanic Language, Culture and People.

What would be here without that invasion is a again a Roman Influenced Celtic,  Brythonic.  

What is needed is to figure out a POD for Roman Britain to hold on its own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_Roman_rule_in_Britain

My own suggestion is that the 3 Legions of the Roman Garrison (or whatever was there in late 300's) never leaves but instead sets up its own British Kingdom. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_of_Roman_rule_in_Britain#383.E2.80.93388

The Roman Governor and his decedents instead declare themselves not Roman Emperors but rather Kings of Britain.  The legions recruit local, maintain something of their tradition and can hold back the pirate attacks from the Picts, Ireland and Germany.  In time they go on to take over Scotland and Ireland.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus_Maximus

So there would still be Britannia (latin name of the province) it would just be very different.

Michael

[Guinness]

Well, no pressure then Kirk; it sounds like you have the entire history of North America in your hands. :)

[Borys]

Ahoj!
Petsamo and Fisherman's Peninsula should be added to Suomi.
And Caithness to Norge ...
:D
Borys

[Darman]

This has nothing to do with anything but North America.... is anyone planning on carving up Holland?

[Guinness]

This has nothing to do with anything but North America.... is anyone planning on carving up Holland?

We'll have to see what europe looks like once we layer on NPCs I guess.

[Darman]

I could probably work with even a Holland under foreign (i.e. non-Dutch) control.  As long as that control wasn't in place during the colonization phase. 

[Guinness]

Well, if Kirk is out, someone else will play Britain, and I'd say chances are good that Britain will speak English, so it may be a moot point.