Europe Buildup

[miketr]

I'm still would like to see an independent Luxembourg. Just as Switzerland this could make a good place for international treaties. Also as mike mentioned it would likely be German otherwise.
Another question is whether we should split Belgium/Netherlands in two countries or have them united.

A single Province nation is too small to bother with I think.  Splitting Belgium Netherlands would be fine.

Also what is that blob east of Germany & Austria supposed to be?

Poland-Ukraine once we get Europe settled in terms of PC's and history we can turn the blob into something more clear.

Michael

[Jefgte]

I like the last map.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1386/europev7.png

So, I suggest to increase France with Belgium & Netherland & Change the name.
to "West European Confederation"

You could give the south of France (Aquitaine) to Iberia & Mediterranean coast to Italy.


Jef  ;)

[Nobody]

I'm still would like to see an independent Luxembourg. Just as Switzerland this could make a good place for international treaties. Also as mike mentioned it would likely be German otherwise.
Another question is whether we should split Belgium/Netherlands in two countries or have them united.

A single Province nation is too small to bother with I think.  Splitting Belgium Netherlands would be fine.

Ok, I just thought of the Luxembourg Crisis, the Treaty of London (1867) and that it would be nice to have such a "cornerstone". For the same reason I'm against splitting Switzerland.
And if you think it too small we could make it a two provinces nation based on the 1839 borders.

And it's not like it has to do anything either.

[Jefgte]

No problemo
You could make what you want with Luxembourg.

Jef  ;)

[miketr]

Guys the objective here is not to remove all the NPC nations.  If you guys want to do a deal with each other to wipe them out?  Fine, once the game starts.  Just understand there is going to be a price to be paid here. 

Michael

[Jefgte]

Michael, that is just to start with an exact map.


Jef  ;)

[Korpen]

In 1880 Luxemburg should still be a part of the Netherlands (In personal union).
I do think be should keep Belgium and the Netherlands as separate, sovereign, states. While I am no fan of adding NPC countries just to have more states, I am for keeping the ones that existed.

[Valles]

*gets irritated expression*

*digs around a bit*

*pickets thread with hand-painted sign reading HONOR THE BUTTERFLY*

[Sachmle]

In 1880 Luxemburg should still be a part of the Netherlands (In personal union).
I do think be should keep Belgium and the Netherlands as separate, sovereign, states. While I am no fan of adding NPC countries just to have more states, I am for keeping the ones that existed.

The ones that existed when? At the earliest point-of-departure? Who says they would still exist in 1880, or in what state. Perhaps to keep from being swallowed by Germany or France Belgium and Netherlands made a union and over the decades they just became one nation. Remember Korpen, RL history stops 1 sec after the earliest POD. If players decide to keep certain 'historical' events, that is at their discretion, but basing your, I don't want to say 'argument' because you're not arguing, your....opinion that Belgium and Netherlands should remain as they were IRL on RL history is rather invalid.

[Korpen]

The ones that existed when? At the earliest point-of-departure? Who says they would still exist in 1880, or in what state. Perhaps to keep from being swallowed by Germany or France Belgium and Netherlands made a union and over the decades they just became one nation. Remember Korpen, RL history stops 1 sec after the earliest POD. If players decide to keep certain 'historical' events, that is at their discretion, but basing your, I don't want to say 'argument' because you're not arguing, your....opinion that Belgium and Netherlands should remain as they were IRL on RL history is rather invalid.

After the Napoleonic wars Belgium was a part of the Netherlands until they revolted, but that is just nitpicking...

So far there are not really any significant external departures (things that directly affect the events of other countries) from OTL in Western Europe and most PODs so far have been very recent. Hence there are not any reasons why they would not exist. If someone come up with a good and interesting reason that need Benelux changed I am fine with it; but I do not think we should start changing them and only then come up with reasons for the change.
Keeping them and their rich history gives us more history and immersion in the game for free, and without extra work for anyone. To throw that away only because some like changes for changes sake seems so wastefull.

[Sachmle]

To throw that away only because some like changes for changes sake seems so wastefull.

That point I will agree on.

[miketr]

I have still not scene a solid answer, do we have a full France or not?  If yes then we should have Belgium and Luxemburg.

Michael

[Guinness]

well, I guess we should look first to Jef, who said:

I like the last map.

http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/1386/europev7.png

So, I suggest to increase France with Belgium & Netherland & Change the name.
to "West European Confederation"

You could give the south of France (Aquitaine) to Iberia & Mediterranean coast to Italy.


Jef  ;)

So I read that as he's happy to have the main rump of France, without it's Mediterranean holdings, if we give him the low countries. I think I could live with simplifying that a bit to some of the low countries, where at least a sizable minority speaks French. To me though, a nation that includes French speakers and large numbers of non-French speakers doesn't work without a credible back story to explain it.

[Jefgte]

Thanks Guinness

France territory is too small.
To increase lightly France, I hope to have south of Belgium, west of Switzerland & a few region in the south of France.
Pays Basque & Roussillon could be to Iberia &
Mediterranean coast (Comté de Nice) to Italy.

Jef

[ctwaterman]

Well if Italy stuck with the House of Savoy they established the City of Nice historically.  I had suggested that Italy get those few small regions along its western Border to Include the City of Nice.