North America Buildup

[Desertfox]

Can you guys please stop blaming me for everything? I understand IC but OOC? Yeah I was in a bunch of wars but I didn't start a single one of them. 1st Chinese War, the Chinese decide they want Hong Kong and Shanghai back, Austria and Spain decide to jump in just for fun. 2nd Pacific War, a storyline between me and maddox is derailed by the Dutch deciding they feel like attacking NS, everyone then decided to help them out. Rift War, Charles has a premeditated plan and uses one of my minor stories as an excuse to invade. Maori war, well no explanation needed...

Yeah I might have more land BUT I still have to defend said land with the same exact amount of resources as anyone else. If anything I would say the smaller countries have an advantage here.

@ Blooded, where you from?

[TexanCowboy]

Guys, settle down.

After a discussion about it, me and charles decided to loop off everything north of the Arkansas River that was part of Texas that isn't part of Arkansas. This will allow for a more balanced map for all, in both of our opinions. It's still sizable, just less so, more on the size range of California then what it was, and I'm ok with that. Realistically speaking, it'll be about the amount of land that was possible to colonize with the fact that less people from the US are coming, and there are more Frenchies and Germans about.

Blooded, I'll be losing the land west to the north of the Arkansas in all but Arkansas. Seems reasonable to you?

Charles, I'd like to ask that you cut off your Missouri claim on the latest map, and part of the Illinois part. It just extends too far north for my comfort, and I'd like to give up some of that land in Arkansas and Missouri that I can't because of that claim.

I'm envisioning this.


Charles, you loose that chunk of Missouri and a bit of northern Illinois, is that ok? It won't be your heartland or anything, King cotton! :D

I loose a good chunk, I'm down to about 550,000 square miles, I think. Which I think is ok when you realize my economy is going to be more like Argentina, based on cattle (a good chunk of it), and other land intensive agriculture as compared to say, New England, which is more based on shipbuilding and fishing, much less land intensive. Blooded, can you work with this?

I think New England is ok being smaller. I'm actually worried Acadia may be a little large, but since it might be due to map distortion, I'm somwhat ok with it. I might prefer it a bit more if we pushed it back to the edge of Superior?

Guinness...

Please, I'm VERY unhappy with the shape of Texas at the moment, it's too big. I don't want to be stuck in a version that's too big for me....and as thus, I don't want to accept your map as final untill Texas is reduced in size, as well as parts of the CSA, and maybe Acadia. BTW, you're the one sounding snippy at the moment, and for some reason it seems to be directed at me??? I've tried to be fairly amniable here, there hasn't really been a situation yet where I haven't been able to compromise with the person taking issue to Texas.

Blooded: That's not really the point there. I'm going for SUPA Argentina in the way I start; without some of that land, to raise cattle on so I can get the money to do ISI (Import Substitution Industry), my nation realistically couldn't afford to buy jack navally, maybe a frigate or two.

Guys, I want to know, is the above map (With the exception of snips issues up north, which I trust can be easily fixed by him), almost ready?

[Tanthalas]

I know the mods have already settled this, but im trying to get my head around whats disputed and maybee offer a solution that makes everyone happy, and also everyone unhappy (my opinion is that is what makes for a proper and equitable solution)
I have run lines through what I understand to be the disputed teritory, and wonder if perhaps it shouldnt be declared just that Disputed Teritory.  The Idea isnt realy mine I just cant find the map I remember seeing in the past with things like this on it.

[Blooded]

Hello,

Can you guys please stop blaming me for everything? I understand IC but OOC?

Everything... is an exaggeration, but Pointing out the obvious is necessary at times. Your moniker used to be 'troublemaker'. You start shit. Both here and at Westworld. Embrace it or change it... but do not deny it.  ;)

Especially as most of the land in question are deserts of marginal value and whose loss or gain has very little effect on the country as a whole.

As stated... I am thinking defensively not economically. Realistically for this timeperiod, Central California and southern Oregon are my primary regions. So I could even go down to 200,000 miles and economically it would still make sense. That would be true for New Russsia, Texas and Mexico as well(lots of poor area). So that space is mostly just of strategic value.

Also, none of the NA countries are small compared European countries, in fact most are huge in pure land.

Agreed. I have already stated I would prefer smaller nations in NA. I had no issues with California starting with 450,000 miles. As above I could go smaller. My problem came in due to DF having 850,000 and Tex having 650,000 with no reasonable reasons for it. It just was... and they will hang on to it tooth and nail. If it is of no import then why the reticence of letting go.

And as to Desertfox, well, we do have mods. I say we'll get farther and have more fun by trusting them than by arguing with rulings they've already made.

Funny you don't act that way...  ::)  The Mods have almost always been very lighthanded ... too much so. Appeasement will no longer be my policy.

I have asked for justifications to many questions and have just not gotten them. Not the end of the world.

Thanks for the post Guinness. It solves many problems. I only wish it had been stated  a week ago.

So consider the map above to be the very nearly final draft. The only thing preventing it being the final draft is Charles, who hasn't yet had a chance to weigh in on it.

If that is the case then I will remove myself from the problem and save some time and effort since I am the only dissenting opinion.

I have felt my concerns to be valid and I approached the planning for N4 with far more assertiveness than the norm because i have felt other more vocal players were the only ones whose views are listened to. Since the beginning of my time here I have had many PMs from folks feeling they get run over by other players, but they did not want to start problems.

That is generally how I played for a long while. In the past half year or more, I stopped being so silent. It cost me much of my freetime and tons of patience(which I didn't have and lost it at times) and apparently the animosity of many players. It has sapped the fun out of the game. Maybe silence was the best solution afterall. C'est La Vie. At least I don't feel stepped on any longer. No regrets.  ;D


Tanthalus... Tex...  thanks for the effort. It was a good one, the most genuine so far. but it is the tremendous effort that these debates take that I can no longer deal with. I have been on the verge for sooo long now, I just gotta jump!  ;D The blood pressure is gonna kill me!  ;D


I will be more than happy to pass the torch to Tanthalus since he is in need of a nation. And I'll let Carth or P3D be the resident grump!  ;)

Remember folks... It is not MY Game. It is not YOUR game. It is OUR game.

Good luck on N4!  ;D


Bummer... 4 years and I did not make it to 1000 posts.  ;D

[TexanCowboy]

Wait, I stated willingness to give up about a 1/6th of the land, all that was in question....isn't that what you wanted, Blooded?

[Desertfox]

OK, since DF will not suggest any alternatives, and is incapable of seeing anothers POV then I guess it will go to the MODS. I will not continue a pointless conversation. It takes two to tango.   Roll Eyes

Unfortunately, I believe all conversations with DF end up this way. I honestly can't recall his ever conceding any point in any debate, but compromise does not exist here. It is a miserable process to rediscover his inflexibility. I keep thinking a rational spark must be in there somewhere.

DFs reasoning lacks substance and he avoids the basic issue. It boils down to Guinness mistakenly gave a bigger slice of the North American Pie to the wrong guy(anyone else could have come to a solution by now). I don't have it in me to let DF just have it anymore. DF gets away with too much.. too often.

@ Blooded

You obviously have an axe to grind against me. May I ask why?

Everything... is an exaggeration, but Pointing out the obvious is necessary at times. Your moniker used to be 'troublemaker'. You start shit. Both here and at Westworld. Embrace it or change it... but do not deny it.

The only war I ever started in Wesworld was against MYSELF! Heck, the only wars I started in N-verse where against myself...


You accuse me of all this stuff, when I didn't even have ANY input in it. I was basically handed Mexico after everyone had already discussed stuff. I then ASKED if I could potentially have San Diego. Whether I got it or not, was never up to me. At that point I didn't even know California had a player.

[ctwaterman]

Ok.....


I like Texas last Map.....  its sort of balanced and I have no problem giving up the colored in sections.

What we really want here guys is what territory do we actually control not what territory do we actually claim....??????

As a note from my Discussion with Texan Cowboy... the Colonly of Virgina was a land grand that ran from it OTL Map Borders but extended by Royal Charter all the Way to the Pacific Ocean....   :o  So technically by that Logic the King of England was giving Virgina parts of California.....

The Fact that France and Spain at the time had conflicting land claims both along the Mississippi river and in the Far West is imiaterial to our discussion.

Mexico, California, and Texas probably all claim part of Nevada, Colorado, New Mexico, and Arizona but how many of your Citizens actually live in those territories.   With out the Trans Continental Railroad to drive settlement in the Great American Desert and East of the Continetal Devide what is in all this disputed territory.


I have a proposal... Its called Deserit I believe it will be centered around Salt Lake City and be a religious Government built by the Mormons and while it will want trade with all our nations really really does not want to belong in any one of them.  ???

Blooded I agree size of land claims here are very large.   And even today most of the US is sparcely populated by the standards of Europe and Asia.

It doesnt matter how big your land claims are here your income is determined by your starting GDP population and size of terrirory will not get you more all starting Income are the same.   Besides which California itslef is a huge rich territory.

Whats the Joke... I heard Alaska was going to devide itself in half and make Texas the third largest state in the Union.  ::)

What we have here is a situation where many of us have conflicting claims of ownership to huge swaths of land from the Mississippi to the Continental Devide.   What is required here is either a series of treaties to establish by treaty ownership of land that is considered waste and over run with Natives.  For Futrue expansion or a series of nice little wars to determine control of said territories after the game starts.

I think we can work this out both as a roleplaying and intellectual exercise.

Charles

[Carthaginian]

Acadia is most certainly a victim of 'Northern Latitude Distortion.'
http://matplotlib.github.com/plot_directive/pyplots/plotmap.hires.png
Acadia will be a bit larger in land area than the CSA, but not drastically so. Additionally, Acadia will be more of an 'empty space' nation; a large portion of what is 'Acadia' on the map is a lot like the OTL U.S., Australia or Canada at the time- civilization on both ends with some very sparsely settled land in between.
The 'southern civilization line' follows the Great Lakes and the chain of smaller rivers and lakes up to Lake Winnipeg, then up the Nelson River to Hudson Bay; the 'northern civilization line' follows the coast of Labrador, around the northern coast of Ontario and along the shore of Hudson Bay. Most of the 'northern civilization line' is actually 'itinerant tribesmen' who migrate after the game they subsist upon. There are some semi-permanent outposts for seal hunters and whalers along this coast, but these are few and far between- mostly they serve as 'stopovers' for the small 'mobile capital ships' that service the Inuit tribes.

I wouldn't have a real problem with loosing territory, but I do remind folks that like all the nations fighting over 'empty space' in the desert southwest, most of my territory isn't all that useful... and the claim on much of it is as much a product of 'nobody else wanted this' as it is a product of 'we have to have this.' Basically, it's just 'gray area' land that was recently absorbed by my nation- much of which is really not really accurately mapped. No one else wanted that sub-arctic tundra, so my nation simply enveloped it as the northern sea was explored.

[TexanCowboy]

I was actually thinking more of the land in western Ontario, to tell the truth.

Honestly, although I think it could be adjusted, I'm fine with it as is. I know ctwaterman is as well, I think snip is too except for his little issue with the Rockies.

[Carthaginian]

I was actually thinking more of the land in western Ontario, to tell the truth.

Like I said- those are rivers and lakes that my people use to transport items east to west. The land in Western Ontario is the only real 'civilized' part of the land that far west... the land along the coast of Hudson's Bay is FAR less heavily populated than it. Basically, you're worrying about the wrong part of the nation!

[ctwaterman]

Uhm...
NO. According to EVERYTHING that N4 is about, we are supposed to be starting COMPLETELY EQUAL.
This includes Mods, and nothing has been said to the contrary to indicate that your view is correct.

Any saber-rattling has to be backed up by balls, not bonuses to the Mods.

Ok lets dispel and confirm a few things.

All the Starting Player Nations are going to be the same.  There were discussions of larger Mod Nations much larger.   But most of us did not really like the way having a Huge China and a huge France worked out so after arguements its was decided that the moderator nations would have a slight Income Edge over the players.   I am pretty sure that it has been argued down to around 20% or so.

Now player conflicts about Ideas and such please remain calm and talk to each other and if that doesnt work talk to mods.  This is a game and we are in the hardest part world building.

I have stated I think many of the territories claimed in North America would be basically that Land Claims.   Territory claimed by a nation but not actually controlled by that nation.  As such I think the final map would have more Grey in the Center and some White.

I was going to create a NPC [Non Player Country] and name is Deseret until I discoverd Blooded was using the Mormon Migrations to create his country.

People have been throwing out maps and more maps but when it all comes right down to it the Mods were going to have to look at the arguements make some judgements and well Wing it....

And yes the Native Tribes on the Great Planes and the Souix on the Northern Planes will be more powerful entites trading for small arms and possibly encouraging some technical transfers to atleast make their own munitions.   But they are still nomadic in nature so while it will take more then a regement of Cavalry to get occupy them it probably wont take a Corp....  Remember the US Army in the 1880 did not have a full Corp to deploy against either the Souix or the Apache wars.  I think General CooK against the Apache deployed roughly a full Regiment or 5000 Regular and scouts against the Apache and that was a large deployment to corner and wear down what maybe 500 irregular troops.

Charles

[Tanthalas]

I was actually thinking more of the land in western Ontario, to tell the truth.

Basically, you're worrying about the wrong part of the nation!

Hey thats my job (Worrying about the wrong things that is).  I will provisionaly accept for Deseret, contingant on Moderator aproval of me as the "new" head of that state.  Can anyone tell me when all this spliting happend to the NA? I just need a year so I can figure out a few things for the timeline

[ctwaterman]

We were still working on a timeline....

It appears the US Split either with the failure of the Constitutional Convention or with the Hartford Convention at or durring the Napoleonic Wars.   The 7 Years wars were not as successful for the British leaving France with many of its former colonies intact.

Charles

[Tanthalas]

We were still working on a timeline....

It appears the US Split either with the failure of the Constitutional Convention or with the Hartford Convention at or durring the Napoleonic Wars.   The 7 Years wars were not as successful for the British leaving France with many of its former colonies intact.

Charles

Pre Civil War works for me, im just trying to write a timeline for Deseret that had to take into account 2 nations on the east coast. but it didnt realy matter since I started in 1844.

[Tanthalas]

timeline 1844-1847 Please dont ask me to change to much this thing was a terror to construct (atleast it gets easier after this point) up to this point I havnt realy made any major changes to what happend OTL (I just had to collect it all from several diferent sources)

06 25, 1844 Joseph and Hyrum Smith are imprisond in Carthage Ill. Jail

06 27, 1844 200 armed men, their faces painted black storm the jail in the late aafternoon and fire   
            multiple musket shots into the cell the brothers are ocupying.  Both men are killed,       
            inspite of the fact that 4 men are injured storming the Jail and later aprehended noone 
            would ever be convicted of this crime

09 08, 1844 The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles anounces that after much prayer God has reveald
            that Joseph Smith III will be the next leader of the church, due however to him only
            being 12 years of age Brigham Young is apointed Guardian of the Faith.

11 11, 1845 Brigham Young in his Role as Guardian of the Faith instructs Samuel Brannan to
            Charter ships for the purpose of moving Mormons living in the Eastern New England
            States to California.

02 04, 1846 Thousands of Saints are forced to flee Nauvoo Ill by Local Militia crossing the border 
            Into Kansas a crossed the Mississippi river and traveling to the Missouri River where 
            they establish the temporary camp of Winter Quarters.

02 04, 1846 The ships Brooklyn, Philidelphia, Two Sisters, and Orleans under Charter to Samuel                     
            Brannan with 958 souls onboard depart New York Harbor bound for San Francisco.

06 04, 1846 The Saints arrive at Winter Quarters and begin making plans for the departure of The 
            Saints to Deseret a new Nation they intend to found in The Great Basin.

07 29, 1846 The ships Chartered by Samuel Brannan arrive in San Francisco.

04 05, 1847 Vanguard Company under the Command of Brigham Young Departs Winter Quarters
            breaking trail and establishing a route for the main migration to follow.

06 01, 1847 Vanguard Company reaches Fort Laramie a Trading post for The Hudson's Bay 
            Company.  They stop there for several days to effect repairs on several waggons and 
            get many draft animals reshod.

07 24, 1847 Vanguard Company reaches the Great Basin and is met by Sam Brannan who tells 
            Brigham Young of the establishment of the settelment near San Francisco.

07 28, 1847 Brigham Young established a location for the Salt Lake City Temple and presented a 
            city plan to the larger group for their approval.

09 17, 1847 Brigham Young and other selected members of the vanguard company returned to 
            Winter Quarters.

12 16, 1847 More than two thousand Saints had completed the journey to the Salt Lake Valley as it 
            was now known. Several hundred, including Young, returned east to gather and 
            organize the companies scheduled for following year.

Opinions are however as always welcome.