North America Buildup

[Logi]

I agree, let's ally and declare war on him post haste ;D

[Carthaginian]

Guys, I think we need to declare war on Carth if THAT's his queen.

That is actually the chick's mother- but, you know, if ya wanna know what she's gonna look like in 30 years, look at her momma.

I can assure you that His Majesty will be looking elsewhere for his, er... 'entertainment.'
He needs a better half, not a better 'two-thirds.'

[ctwaterman]

*Wow... someone claw out my Eyes*...


No Heir and a spare for for this Empire so once the Royal Family dies out who is the cadet branch that inherits...

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The dress does not do her justice ....
Borys

[Guinness]

Blooded, Foxy and Tex: are the borders in the vicinity of Arizona worked out, or do we need to keep working on it?

[Desertfox]

I... am not really sure what's going on...

[Carthaginian]

Working good for me, G.
I kinda like the idea of the wiki.

[snip]

Well as I had an *ahem* opportunity to redo things...

Early-1780: A more unified culture of Natives comes into fruition in the Pacific Northwest. While not reaching the extent of unification necessary to form a traditional nation-state, the interdependence of the tribes slowly grows through the mid 1000s, becoming a proto-nation-state by the 1700's. During this time, several wayward explores bring the illnesses of the West to the region. The arrival of Russian colonists sees most of the population of remaining natives with a developed resistance to the illnesses that wrecked havoc with native populations in the East.

1780's and 1790's: Grigory Shelikhov and others spearhead a much greater colonization effort of the future lands of New Russia. When contact is made with the proto-nation-state of the natives, the Russians chose to attempt to integrate the native's society with that of the colonists instead of exterminating it. This eventually leads to the extent of colonies territory and population being much larger than originally thought possible.

1810's: By Imperial decree, most of the Jewish population of the Russian Empire is relocated to other areas. Most of the exiled Jews end up in the colony, greatly increasing its population.

1826: After a Decembrist Revolt with a very different outcome, Constantine Pavlovich becomes the Grand Duke of New Russia. His control is harsh, but his passing in 1831 ushers in a long line of fair and just rulers.

1840's: Forward looking individuals and the Russian and colonial governments begin the slow process of industrializing the colony, harnessing the ememce power of its natural waterways at first, and eventually the large reserves of coal, wood and iron that dot the colony. Both the Russian and colonial governments subsidizes creation of large shipyards to facilitate the transport of these goods on Russian-made ships.

1842: Following the end of the Opium war (or its NTL equivalent) a large group of Chinese appeal to the Russian government to let them settle in the colony. The Russians agree and give the Chinese access an island and some territory north of the main colony to settle in.

1848: As part of the sweeping reforms across Europe, the Russian Empire falls. At this time, New Russia officially declares it independence as one of the states that emerges from the implosion of the Russian state.

Early 1850's: The discovery of Gold to the south of the new nation, brings new trade opportunities as the land to the south greatly swells the demand for finished goods. Factories see increased productivity and numbers. The previous efforts at industrialization serve to provide a exilent base and soon the country is able to meet not only its own needs, but have a significant export market in California as well.

1862: A reform movement that had been building in momentum finally succeeds in pushing through a constitution. This is coupled with the transfer of many executive powers from the monarchy to the new representative government. The nation finally shakes the last bonds of colonialism and takes the title of Respublika Novaya Rossiya (Republic of New Russia). Due to the amount of different cultures present and the origins of the reform movement in anti-serfdom, all men are granted equal participation in the government. Freedom of religion is also granted to the population as a whole, owing to its great religious diversity. Slavery is outlawed, but due to the relative lack of slaves this does not cause much fuss. The government is a representative republic, with very advanced social policy owing to its origins as both an anti-serfdom and pro-labor movement. The monarchy remains intact and is still the holder of several important diplomatic and political positions. The Republican Army is formed with the elite groups forming the Republican Guards who are responsible for protecting both the government and the royal family. The government buys many small vessels for fishery protection and patrol duties to form the Republican Navy.

1865: The Republican Navy finally commissions it first purpose-built warship. This heralds the start of an aggressive military buildup, with an accompanying general industrial buildup, to accomplish the goals of kick starting the economy out of its post-revolution slump and defending the young nation's interests.

Im working on a royal liniage, may post it tonight even.

[Blooded]

Hello,

I have had some supportive PMs and I am going to do my best to stick around.

Guinness:

Blooded, Foxy and Tex: are the borders in the vicinity of Arizona worked out, or do we need to keep working on it?

Is there a reason you want the Map wrapped up so soon? Is something else waiting on it? You had stated that the histories AND Map are subject to change, and that is what I am trying to do.

What were your reasons for having Mexico hold Arizona and parts of Utah, Colorado and New Mexico on the original map?

As I have shown( with rough calculations) Mexico is almost twice the size of California. The way I see it, DesertFox and i will be going to war immediately upon gamestart. That leaves me NO manuevering room and if I have to give something up or have something occupied it will hurt my economy more than would be the case if a similar amount of territory is lost by DF. That is asinine, I will not volunteer to be in that situation.

So I think the border still needs modification.

BTW, Somebody had stated a possibility for 2 native nations(I would suggest The Iroquois Confederacy-the Eastern Natives  and The Lakota Lands(or somesuch) in the central plains.

[Blooded]

DesertFox

I'd be glad to discuss my reasons, but I'm not sure what the contention points are.

Please do state your reasons... Then I guess you need to reread my posts.
here is the first on the subject.
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=5549.msg70945#msg70945

Do you want Arizona? Not much there really, not even today.

I certainly do. Plus all of the area north of Mexicos OTL border(not incuding the Gasden purchase-ie you get that section of Arizona and New Mexico). You are correct, there is not much there even today(It does allow depth to a defense though).
Since we are obviously starting off as antagonists I would be crazy not to equalize our starting land. Trading that much land will do it nicely. About as equal as possible.

Also the reason Mexico lost Arizona in OTL  was that the US needed passage from Texas to California, since that is no a problem here, I don't see any real reason as to why Mexico would lose it.

We are making up our own histories here. For N4 basics... I propose that With the constant TexMex Wars, California sees the chance for Independence if it strikes while the 3rd war is on, populations and military units were small out west. Gold is offered to buy Alta California and the New Mex sliver at treaty time. This would give the Mexican government much desired $$! Perhaps that gold paid for new infrastructure, tech and shipwrites allowing you to create your monitors(from the texas navy section) perhaps he just made a solid gold tub, who knows? Obviously the details are poor at this stage but i see no point to invent details without your basic agreement.

Or is it San Diego? I did say I could do without, but it would be very nice to have.

I can live without San Diego, but it would be nice to have. Especially if you don't want to fight wars over it

. 
San Diego is very nice soo I think I will keep it. Anyway.. it is too close to the border to make it your major military port. Especially if we are fighting over it.

I don't have much in the way of Pacific ports.

The only decent one I have is La Paz and that one is pretty far south

Exaggerating a bit? I can see another 4 Good areas down western baja if you add some breakwaters and perhaps dredge. If you look along the entire Pacific coast you have many great locations.


There are other possibilites to equalize. Mexico could give up 400,000 miles to the natives.  ;D
For DF to keep Arizona I would except the Baja Peninsula(55,000 square miles) plus the Utah(20K), colorado(30K), new mexico(50K) parts(with another 50k or so to Logi down south).  ;D
Either would help even things up.

[Desertfox]

What were your reasons for having Mexico hold Arizona and parts of Utah, Colorado and New Mexico on the original map?

Its pretty simple. Mexico lost them in OTL simply because they where in between Texas and California. The US needed land to build a railroad through. Other than that the US had zero need for those lands.

As I have shown( with rough calculations) Mexico is almost twice the size of California. The way I see it, DesertFox and i will be going to war immediately upon gamestart. That leaves me NO manuevering room and if I have to give something up or have something occupied it will hurt my economy more than would be the case if a similar amount of territory is lost by DF. That is asinine, I will not volunteer to be in that situation.

And yet you have the better lands. Canada is the second largest nation in terms of land area, but it doesn't make them a global power. Today California is the 5th largest economy in the world, Mexico is 13th.

Why would we be at war immediately?

And all of your important parts are behind a river, several hundred miles of desert, and a pretty significant mountain range. On top of very long LOC on my part. The only invasion route on my part is up the coast and the terrain is not any better there.

I certainly do. Plus all of the area north of Mexicos OTL border(not incuding the Gasden purchase-ie you get that section of Arizona and New Mexico). You are correct, there is not much there even today(It does allow depth to a defense though).
Since we are obviously starting off as antagonists I would be crazy not to equalize our starting land. Trading that much land will do it nicely. About as equal as possible.

In
that case your nation would be behind hundreds of miles of desert, while my Northern states would be quite vulnerable.

Exaggerating a bit? I can see another 4 Good areas down western baja if you add some breakwaters and perhaps dredge. If you look along the entire Pacific coast you have many great locations.

None of which have easy rail access to the rest of the country. The Baja peninsula in general is a pretty bad place to place stuff. Lots of mountains and very poor infrastructure even today. I got some decent locations in the Pacific coast, but all are on the mainland. And its pretty easy for you to cut off Baja in a war.

San Diego is very nice soo I think I will keep it. Anyway.. it is too close to the border to make it your major military port. Especially if we are fighting over it.

My biggest and most important port is Veracruz, and its right next to my Southern border.

I am surrounded by enemies and have two distinctly separate coasts to defend. Is Arizona too much to ask for? And as far as I understand it, we will all be starting equally.

[TexanCowboy]

Guys, I'm sure we can find a compromise position here. What if we don't do all of the land, but everything north of the San Juan, as well as those awkward chunks of Texan land, go to California?

[Blooded]

DF

What were your reasons .... on the original map?
  Its pretty simple. Mexico ..... zero need for those lands.

That was directed to Guinness.. unless you made the map?

   

And yet you have the better lands.

Er.. California, nevada, utah, and Idaho are mostly desert. Just like Mexico, not a whole lot happens there without water being provided. very little of that land was worth a damn without alot of blood, sweat and tears.

   

Today California is the 5th largest economy in the world, Mexico is 13th.

OTL and 130 years difference. Apples and Oranges. I fully believe that if Mexico had the 1849 Gold Rush, better leaders and the rest of the US backing it up that Mexico would be number 5 in the world economies.

   

And all of your important parts are behind a river, several hundred miles of desert, and a pretty significant mountain range. On top of very long LOC on my part. The only invasion route on my part is up the coast and the terrain is not any better there.

Go look at some maps. That applies perfectly to mexico as well. Behind a river(Rio or Colorado), Desert, Mountain ranges.

   

Why would we be at war immediately?

Because you suggested that if I dont give you San Diego you will take it.   

Especially if you don't want to fight wars over it

And also because you seem to relish tipping the apple cart. So I guess it will be just on principle at this stage.

   

In that case your nation would be behind hundreds of miles of desert, while my Northern states would be quite vulnerable.

Answered above. We are in the same boat.

   

None of which have easy rail access to the rest of the country. The Baja peninsula in general is a pretty bad place to place stuff. Lots of mountains and very poor infrastructure even today... And its pretty easy for you to cut off Baja in a war.

I see the Baja Peninsula as a giant breakwater. Any small military bases could be supported from the water on the backside if you build some transports. Great for defense, It could act like Italys boot in WW2, drag things on without any major committment on your part.

 

I got some decent locations in the Pacific coast, but all are on the mainland.

Good excuse for extra range and speed on your ships!  ;)

 

My biggest and most important port is Veracruz, and its right next to my Southern border.

You chose your nation. Make someplace else your main port or better yet have several smaller ones. Too many eggs in the basket are bad.

 

I am surrounded by enemies 

You chose your nation. You also choose whether those neighbors are enemies or friends. Perhaps it is time to stop being so atagonistic.

 

and have two distinctly separate coasts to defend.

You chose your nation. I dont feel much for you here.. Russia had 4 main fleets, two seperated by half a world. Build a canal.

 

Is Arizona too much to ask for?

No... but it is not just arizona is it, you want your cake as well. I suggested...
 

There are other possibilites to equalize. Mexico could give up 400,000 miles to the natives. 
For DF to keep Arizona I would except the Baja Peninsula(55,000 square miles) plus the Utah(20K), colorado(30K), new mexico(50K) parts(with another 50k or so to Logi down south).   
Either would help even things up.

 

And as far as I understand it, we will all be starting equally.

Our economies will be equal... yes I gather that is true as well.
But... California currently shows as 18 provinces. Mexico has 40ish? If they go HOI style and assign a number to each province(say we start with 100 economy points) my provinces are worth 5 each yours 2.5. We go to war, We each capture 5 provinces before stalemate. I have lost 25% of my economy, you have lost 12.5%. So we really arent equal are we?

[Carthaginian]

DF,

You really did pick your poison, choosing exactly what you wanted as a nation.
And you can make the nations on your borders allies or enemies- it is all up to you.

No one feels for you at all.

I especially don't as I will be lucky to have one port that doesn't require icebreakers and explosives to keep open more than 5 months out of 12. Deal with the anchorages you have; this is fictional you know... if something isn't perfect in the Real World, that don't mean you can't spread some BS around and MAKE it perfect.

[snip]

You really did pick your poison, choosing exactly what you wanted as a nation.
And you can make the nations on your borders allies or enemies- it is all up to you.

I think this about sums it up