North America Buildup

[Guinness]

An important point here: a nation could be 500 sq miles or 5 million, the GDP at startup will be the same. So from a perspective of resources, territory won't matter.

Now of course, borders do matter. Terrain has great influence on overall defensibility.

Much of the shape of the California/Mexico/Texas map as being argued about now is likely my fault, as I tinkered with a previous draft to try to get those borders to follow rivers where they could, especially the Colorado. I think that's still a good idea.

The history of N. America is there for those who are playing in N. America to define. I realize there are interdependencies with Europe and (probably/hopefully) Asia. What we need to do cooperatively is discover and define what those interdependencies are or need to be. I've tried to put my stake in the ground that I like the idea of Britain's PoD resulting in a long-lived Tudor dynasty, but that certainly could not be the case as well.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm trying to drive the "worldbuilding" process to be bottom-up. We are actively trying to avoid directing top-down story lines, or even top-down borders, unless we have to. This is by necessity a somewhat adversarial process I suppose, but let's please try to do it as cooperatively as possible. There's a new thread and a new post on the process in general coming.

[TexanCowboy]

Sorry for the attitude, Blooded; really didn't mean it as such.

Foxy lives in Arizona ATM, IIRC; I believe that's why he wanted Arizona.

Anyways...I think having the Mexican lump there settles some stuff up; if California wants the land, that's what wars for. I don't think that a Morman Empire busy settling California is going to find a way to take over that land from Mexico, esp. a Mexico with a large military rebuilding from a recent defeat from Texas (1849 or so).

Stories can be found in this thread and in the "Armada du la Texas" thread.

The line was basically "Hey, Texas has Cheyenne. Let's stretch that until we get to the continental divide, and to stop Mexican expansion!"

[Blooded]

Hello,

Sorry for the attitude

Sorry for mine as well- if it comes across that way- it is not meant.  :)


I think have reread everything in the obvious areas especially those pointed out by Tex and can find nothing posted by DF concerning Mexicos history or claims. BTW, I am not really interested in giving up San Diego. 60 miles to the south lies Ensenada would that work?

Tex's 'official' history was posted only 2 days ago.. AFTER I had posted my own suggestions for different borders, so I see no particular reason to see it as a MORE valid construct. It has little to do with the areas in question other than..

1817......Texan independence is sealed at the battle of San Jacinto; however, borders are not fully established (are set at the Mexican claimed OTL ones, but Texas claims the borders it did OTL)

Points in particular I have issue with are an OTL ROT claim when the Louisana Purchase never occured and the great central plains are still under native control.

Mexicos claims in the west ran all the way through snips territory for what it is worth, it simply did not/does not have the power to hold it all.

Much of the shape of the California/Mexico/Texas map as being argued about now is likely my fault, as I tinkered with a previous draft to try to get those borders to follow rivers where they could, especially the Colorado. I think that's still a good idea.

Along other borders i cant locate rivers(Cali/Oregon and such).   ???   

OK, OK, I get it.. no straightline borders... the aversion seems silly to me though... one mans.. 'whatever' is another mans.. 'whatever'....  ;D

Mexico proper is around 760,000 miles today
Very rough estimates for N4(based on carth1 map)
N4 California is around 450,000 miles
N4 Mexico is around 860,000 miles(I removed around 120,000 for texas' small chunk and Logis domain.
N4 Texas is around 660,000 miles
My proposed roughly OTL northern border(plus gasden purchase) gives mexico around 660,000 and brings California up to around 650,000(if I take ALL of Mexicos stuff north of the border-some of which was offered to Tex in my last proposal). Heck! that makes us all pretty much equal!   ;D

So... are we getting a clearer picture now? Mexico has far too much space that can be traded off in a conflict without any real strategic consequences(it is almost all desert at this time).

if California wants the land, that's what wars for.

I really have NO desires for wars this time around, Why should I be forced into one based on poor starting allocations?   ???

I don't think that a Morman Empire busy settling California is going to find a way to take over that land from Mexico, esp. a Mexico with a large military rebuilding from a recent defeat from Texas (1849 or so).

Disagree completely. What better time than when Mexico is down and out after a tough war?

I would actually like to propose a slight timechange for your 3rd Texican War. This would allow a better opportunity for a California breakaway BEFORE the Gold Rush(as I would like that to be the event that secures California Independence)

Armies are still pretty small at this stage(pre ACW). In fact I am hoping to alter the N3 Army system alot(Regiment or brigade based? Or at least higher 'value' Corps so breaking them down still gives whole values-ie. Dated Inf Corps attack value equals 20 instead of 3... or whatever seems best) among other things.

[TexanCowboy]

Whew, lot of response work to do today :)

Foxy's home is in Pheonix, that's the major reason why he wants it, IIRC.

I think one of the major factors here to realize is that Texas hasn't really civilized most of that land yet. A goodly percentage of that land is controlled by Indians who are being bribed by Texas to submit to the protection of the Texan government, and claim their land in the name of Texas, so a good percentage of those northern borders are flexible. Where California will most likely have effective control over all of its land, Texas has a good bit left to civilize.

A bit less than 860,000, he gave up some of the Central American providences. Maybe...800,000?

Nonetheless, I think we should be getting Foxy's opinion on this before you take the territory from him. If he says "Hey, guise, that's fine", I'd be more amendable to altering the time line and map.

Ok, on the 1817 point; it can claim the territory; the point here is that Texas got really good at bribing tribes to claim their land in the name of Texas before it civilized it, making it de jure Texan territory, and somewhat de facto Texan territory. There aren't many good river boundaries in the region, making it somewhat impractical to cut parts off without cutting a lot off.

[snip]

Along other borders i cant locate rivers(Cali/Oregon and such)

This would be my doing, as I would like the Willamette Vally as part of my territory. As long as I get to hang onto that, then I am amendable to sticking our boarder anywhere. (45th parallel is the highest I am willing to go)

[Desertfox]

Actually I have never lived in Phoenix. Thought of Mexican decent, I have lived all my life in Arizona. So yes, Arizona is pretty important. Also the reason Mexico lost Arizona in OTL  was that the US needed passage from Texas to California, since that is no a problem here, I don't see any real reason as to why Mexico would lose it.

As for San Diego, Ensenada is not really a decent port. The only decent one I have is La Paz and that one is pretty far south. I can live without San Diego, but it would be nice to have. Especially if you don't want to fight wars over it. 

[Blooded]

Hello,

Carth...
I think it was in 'Germs and Steel' that I read that the major reason for the Native American population dieing out was that Europeans had been living in the muck with their animals(goats, pigs, chickens and whatnot) and had built up tolerences to many diseases which the natives did not have. To allow the Native Americans a better shot my 'Vinland' plan was going to be that the Vikings settled more profusely and for a much greater period. This would acclimatize the natives better and give them access to better tech earlier. They proved as adept at utilizing tech as the Japanese did, too bad they did not have the metallurgy backgrounds to help them out. Anyhow... perhaps this will help in a background idea.

Snip..
I had no issues at all with the northern border claims. The Willamette Valley is yours on ALL the maps devised thus far(well.. after the oregon split- 2nd Map maybe?). I had thought that New Russia could use some better farming land, after adding up mileage I dont think I would want to be giving up half of oregon or Idaho any longer anyway(you will still have the northern halves though).

Texan...

A bit less than 860,000, he gave up some of the Central American providences. Maybe...800,000?

Already accounted for if you properly read my statement.

N4 Mexico is around 860,000 miles(I removed around 120,000 for texas' small chunk and Logis domain.

I counted it as 100,000 miles or so.

Fox...
Do you honestly think you are being reasonable? Or is it more like Valles where no one is allowed to alter your vision of the game/reality?
I get sooo damn tired of the short answers which ignore most of my questions or points being made. I spend alot of what little free time I have coming up with my questions and replies only to have you pop in and answer with a few short lines that address very little, ignores most, and ends up basically dismissing all I have tried to contribute. It is damn rude! You need to learn some basic etiquette.

With that said.. I really don't see the point in continuing this nonsense. Too many folks around here act like this and it is just too much frustration. Wish I had the ability to state it more eloquently.

I wish the more reasonable of you to have a good gaming experience and hope to see you around the various Warship boards. Also Happy Fathers Day!

[ctwaterman]

Ok folks we all need to talk slowly and compromise.   
If worse comes to worse I can have everyone submit why they want what they want and then the Mods will draw the Maps.

[TexanCowboy]

...What the hell just happened?

[snip]

I had no issues at all with the northern border claims. The Willamette Valley is yours on ALL the maps devised thus far(well.. after the oregon split- 2nd Map maybe?). I had thought that New Russia could use some better farming land, after adding up mileage I dont think I would want to be giving up half of oregon or Idaho any longer anyway(you will still have the northern halves though).

I was trying to clear up why that boarder followed almost no discernible geographic feature whatsoever

[Desertfox]

Fox...
Do you honestly think you are being reasonable? Or is it more like Valles where no one is allowed to alter your vision of the game/reality?
I get sooo damn tired of the short answers which ignore most of my questions or points being made. I spend alot of what little free time I have coming up with my questions and replies only to have you pop in and answer with a few short lines that address very little, ignores most, and ends up basically dismissing all I have tried to contribute. It is damn rude! You need to learn some basic etiquett

What?  ???  ???

I have been completely out of the loop for a whole month, and have been traveling some more the past few days. My answers have been short cause I have not had much free time. I'd be glad to discuss my reasons, but I'm not sure what the contention points are.

Do you want Arizona? Not much there really, not even today.

Or is it San Diego? I did say I could do without, but it would be very nice to have. I don't have much in the way of Pacific ports.

[Carthaginian]

Sooo... on the East Coast, I see a very traditional French culture- possibly even a bastion of Imperial support for Napoleon Eugene Louis Jean Joseph Bonaparte (Napoleon IV) after his father's death. If England exists in a form that we might recognize- with H.R.H. Queen Victoria as it's head of state- I might even try to, with Guinness's permission, play up the hinted-at relationship between Napoleon IV and Princess Beatrice.

DRAFT HISTORY OF ACADIE

After preventing the British takeover of French colonial territories in the Seven Years War, the French colonists and their Native allies began the task of industrializing New France for the benefit of the Empire and it's Subjects. Several shipyards were built along the Atlantic coast, and canals were begun at Sault Ste. Marie to enable transport between Lake Superior and Lakes Michigan, Huron and Erie... though not to the sea.

*During the interim, France looses all land south of the St. Lawrence River to the British Colonies- not sure about details, will work with Darmon on this one. The Acadians will complete the Welland Canal and the Lachine Canal as well, allowing ships of up to 150'x26'x9' to transit from Lake Superior all the way to the sea... though no 'ocean-going' vessels will be able to make the trip until much later (probably after the Sim ends).

The refugees from the Southern part of New France- largely Acadain- were forced to move inland, settling along the coasts of the Lakes, resuming the fishing and lumber-oriented economic activities that had dominated their culture on the Atlantic coast. When France was defeated by Prussia/the German Empire in the war of 1870-71, the terms of cease-fire included France relinquishing control of New France, granting it independence from the new French Republic. The now separate nation styled itself 'Acadie' in honor of the original name of the French territorial claim in the New World.

*Emperor Napoleon III's eldest son also escapes to Acadia and, while not welcomed as the all-powerful monarch his father had been, is crowned Head of State of what becomes in the next 10 years a constitutional monarchy with powers similar to the Hanoverian line of England.

That's the rough draft... very rough.

Questions, comments, hurled fireballs?

[Guinness]

Sadly, Queen Victoria does not in fact exist. I need to dream up who the King or Queen is at startup. I had in mind no Hanovers on the English throne at all.

[Carthaginian]

Whomever your extremely talented imagination concocts has some very large slippers to fill, Guinness.
I hope they are equal to the task!

So, I guess that Napoleon IV will have to search abroad for a new love interest- or remain a swinging bachelor, with all the attending power games that a king without legitimate issue would produce. His other OTL love interest was the daughter of Infanta Isabella II... er, well, down home, she is what we would term the "result of a night spent huntin' hogs."
Picture of her and her pet... er, husband, is below. "DANGER, WILL ROBINSON"

*WARNING: GO LOOK AT A FRENCH BATTLESHIP, THEY ARE PRETTIER AND HAVE SLIMMER LINES*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Isabella_II_and_Consort.png

Darman, do you and the Mods find the rest of the history acceptable?

[TexanCowboy]

Guys, I think we need to declare war on Carth if THAT's his queen.