Austrian Dreadnaught Tegetthoff

[Sachmle]

Being overgunned and top heavy wasn't really a problem for the KuK Navy though, since the ships were never intended to operate outside of the Adriatic and Mediterranean anyways.

Tell that to the crew of Szent Istvan. If they hadn't tried to shove 20 gallons of stuff into a 15 gallon barrel she probably wouldn't have sunk from 2 torpedoes in less than 3 hours.

[Darman]

I'm trying to use the same rough hull and rough armament to create a Tegetthoff-like ship.  I'm not going for exactly the same, trying to improve it somewhat if that were possible. 
I am also trying to keep it within the parameters the KuK Navy would have needed, i.e. doesn't have to have awesome seaworthiness since its not going to be leaving the Adriatic/Med. 
I believe I made most of the changes recommended... some conflicted so I made decisions. 
And Korpen, I've never ever been any good with the freeboard on the ship.  I generally just let it run with "default". 

Tegetthoff, Austro-Hungary Dreadnaught laid down 1910

Displacement:
   22,239 t light; 23,776 t standard; 24,707 t normal; 25,452 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   498.00 ft / 498.00 ft x 92.00 ft (Bulges 94.00 ft) x 29.00 ft (normal load)
   151.79 m / 151.79 m x 28.04 m (Bulges 28.65 m)  x 8.84 m

Armament:
      12 - 13.00" / 330 mm guns (4x3 guns), 1,098.50lbs / 498.27kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns in single mounts, 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, all amidships
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      14 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 14,721 lbs / 6,677 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 125

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 279 mm   325.74 ft / 99.29 m   11.45 ft / 3.49 m
   Ends:   5.50" / 140 mm   138.26 ft / 42.14 m   11.45 ft / 3.49 m
     34.00 ft / 10.36 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   3.50" / 89 mm   323.70 ft / 98.66 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      2.00" / 51 mm   323.70 ft / 98.66 m   27.73 ft / 8.45 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   12.0" / 305 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   7.09" / 180 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 4.25" / 108 mm, Conning tower: 11.00" / 279 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 30,674 shp / 22,882 Kw = 20.50 kts
   Range 4,200nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,676 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   984 - 1,280

Cost:
   £2.519 million / $10.077 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,840 tons, 7.4 %
   Armour: 9,374 tons, 37.9 %
      - Belts: 2,561 tons, 10.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 664 tons, 2.7 %
      - Armament: 3,220 tons, 13.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,728 tons, 11.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 201 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,394 tons, 5.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 9,356 tons, 37.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,468 tons, 10.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 275 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     26,538 lbs / 12,037 Kg = 24.2 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 4.8 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.02
   Metacentric height 4.6 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 18.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.64
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.637
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.30 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.32 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   15.62 ft / 4.76 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.62 ft / 4.76 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.62 ft / 4.76 m
      - Stern:      15.62 ft / 4.76 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.81 ft / 4.82 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 97.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,681 Square feet or 3,222 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 91 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 200 lbs/sq ft or 976 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.74
      - Overall: 1.05
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

250 tons Fire Control
25 tons long-range wireless

I also added the fire control and long range wireless..

[Delta Force]

Being overgunned and top heavy wasn't really a problem for the KuK Navy though, since the ships were never intended to operate outside of the Adriatic and Mediterranean anyways.

Tell that to the crew of Szent Istvan. If they hadn't tried to shove 20 gallons of stuff into a 15 gallon barrel she probably wouldn't have sunk from 2 torpedoes in less than 3 hours.

It wasn't Popper's fault (chief designer of the KuK), he had drawn up a ship which was longer and had better underwater division. Austria-Hungary had one of the best naval industries around, and Skoda 16.5 inch guns were planned to be used on the next generation of Austro-Hungarian and German dreadnoughts. They had an excellent navy (in material and personnel) considering all of the troubles that the Empire had, and also seeing as they had only started their modern naval buildup with Franz Ferdinand as Crown Prince. But yes, Austria-Hungary did suffer from the problem of not really needing battleships while being a great power in constant crisis, so they tried to cut corners on the size of the ships and their protection levels as much as possible in order to appear more powerful and well off than they actually were.

I have a few links that you might find interesting, I know I did while I was playing Graf Montecuccoli of the Austro-Hungarian team in a 1900s game. We decided to just build the original (larger) plans, since there isn't much point in constructing a dreadnought and then leaving a few thousand tons off that would make it much more protected.

Here is an interesting read on the design on the Tegetthoffs:
http://www.cityofart.net/bship/sms_tegetthoff.html

Also, here is some design plans that were drawn up by the KuK for dreadnought battleships and battlecruisers, including some planned to use 16.5 inch Skoda guns:
http://homepages.fh-giessen.de/~hg6339/data/ah/battleships/1917_bb-projects/tec_ah-bb_page2_en.htm

Here is KuK stuff in general:
http://homepages.fh-giessen.de/~hg6339/data/ah/

[Borys]

Ahoj!
The Danube Monarchy's main problem was spending c.25M GBP on the military, while it should had spent c.50-60M GB p/a.
But that's another story ...
Borys

[Sachmle]

Thanks for the links, but I've actually already read all of them.

Popper was nearly blind by the time the Tegetthoff's were designed and it did effect the design. The biggest problem was the small size combined with the heavy armament didn't allow enough room for an effective TDS. There was only ~1.6m effective depth to the TDS, where contemporaries had between 4-5m. This, combined with poor subdivision, accounted for Szent Istvan's death.

Ahoj!
The Danube Monarchy's main problem was spending c.25M GBP on the military, while it should had spent c.50-60M GB p/a.
But that's another story ...
Borys

That, and the only way to get the Hungarian part to approve the expenditure on the Tegetthoff's was to allow them to build one at Danubius, who had never built anything larger than a destroyer.

[Nobody]

Interesting, 15 cm (6 Inch) dual purpose guns on a 1917 design!

[Darman]

Interesting, 15 cm (6 Inch) dual purpose guns on a 1917 design!

Is that what it had?  I put the 6 inch guns as breechloaders.  Or would they be better classified as quick-firers? 
And I used wikipedia as my source for the first ship of the class (forgetting the name at this time). 

[eltf177]

Interesting, 15 cm (6 Inch) dual purpose guns on a 1917 design!

Yes, and most of the new designs had them as well. Somehow I doubt they would have worked, given the German failure of their 150mm AA gun in WWII.

[Sachmle]

Interesting, 15 cm (6 Inch) dual purpose guns on a 1917 design!

Is that what it had?  I put the 6 inch guns as breechloaders.  Or would they be better classified as quick-firers? 
And I used wikipedia as my source for the first ship of the class (forgetting the name at this time). 

Nobody is referring to Battlecruiser design IV and Battleship design V and VI. They all had 15cm (14.91cm actual bore) guns in deck mounts listed as AA, which by default makes them DP for all intents and purposes. No, we know with hindsight that 15/14.91cm (5.9/5.87") is too large for a DP gun, the RoF is too low and the training and elevation is too slow due to barrel weight. But, they won't in 1917.

[Darman]

Ah okay.  makes sense now. 

[Sachmle]

Got bored, thought I'd take a shot at it:

S.M.S. Tegethoff, Österreichisch-Ungarische Schlachtschiff laid down 1910

Displacement:
   18,922 t light; 20,094 t standard; 20,928 t normal; 21,595 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   501.31 ft / 501.31 ft x 89.57 ft x 28.67 ft (normal load)
   152.80 m / 152.80 m x 27.30 m  x 8.74 m

Armament:
      12 - 12.01" / 305 mm guns (4x3 guns), 992.08lbs / 450.00kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 5.87" / 149 mm guns in single mounts, 100.31lbs / 45.50kg shells, 1910 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in all but light seas
      12 - 2.60" / 66.0 mm guns in single mounts, 9.92lbs / 4.50kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      6 - 2.60" / 66.0 mm guns in single mounts, 9.92lbs / 4.50kg shells, 1910 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 1.85" / 47.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.31lbs / 1.50kg shells, 1910 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships
   Weight of broadside 13,294 lbs / 6,030 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 21.0" / 533 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   325.85 ft / 99.32 m   15.68 ft / 4.78 m
   Ends:   5.91" / 150 mm   159.06 ft / 48.48 m   15.68 ft / 4.78 m
     16.40 ft / 5.00 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   7.09" / 180 mm   260.24 ft / 79.32 m   7.84 ft / 2.39 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      0.98" / 25 mm   325.85 ft / 99.32 m   24.15 ft / 7.36 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   11.0" / 280 mm   8.66" / 220 mm      11.0" / 280 mm
   2nd:   7.09" / 180 mm   0.71" / 18 mm      0.91" / 23 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.75" / 45 mm, Conning tower: 11.02" / 280 mm

Machinery:
   Coal fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 25,750 shp / 19,210 Kw = 20.30 kts
   Range 4,200nm at 10.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,501 tons (100% coal)

Complement:
   869 - 1,130

Cost:
   £2.062 million / $8.246 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,471 tons, 7.0 %
   Armour: 7,667 tons, 36.6 %
      - Belts: 3,723 tons, 17.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 287 tons, 1.4 %
      - Armament: 2,443 tons, 11.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 1,034 tons, 4.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 180 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 1,170 tons, 5.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 8,064 tons, 38.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,006 tons, 9.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 550 tons, 2.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     23,303 lbs / 10,570 Kg = 26.9 x 12.0 " / 305 mm shells or 4.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 4.7 ft / 1.4 m
   Roll period: 17.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.569
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.60 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.39 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 43
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      15.68 ft / 4.78 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   15.68 ft / 4.78 m
      - Mid (50 %):      15.68 ft / 4.78 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   15.68 ft / 4.78 m
      - Stern:      15.68 ft / 4.78 m
      - Average freeboard:   15.68 ft / 4.78 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 99.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 109.6 %
   Waterplane Area: 31,897 Square feet or 2,963 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 94 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 185 lbs/sq ft or 904 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.72
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

[P3D]

Wreck diving showed 4 torpedo hits on the Szt. Istvan, 3 of them exploding, one right at the boiler/engine room bulkhead. The TDS depth was 2.5m from the cross-sections I saw.

Maximum design speed was 20kts. It was rather 19kts, as the STT-built ships could run 20kts only for an hour or so, after that, boiler capacity would have limited speed to 19kts. Szt. Istvan had somewhat better boilers.

Danubius was a private yard. Some of the construction delays of Szt. Istvan come from the Heer drafting dock workers, and subsequent strikes. STT, being a naval yard, did not have such problems.

The improved Tegethoff class was designed for 10x35cm guns.

[Sachmle]

Szt. Istvan may have had better boilers, but she only had two turbines/props instead of the 4 the rest of the class had. This is what limited her to 12kts the day of the attack on the Otranto barrage. When they though the turbines had cooled enough to apply more steam she sent up a huge cloud as they increased boiler pressure, which is what tipped off the MAS boats.

As to the 4 hits, I've only ever seen reports of 2. If it was 3 detonating hits, then pretty much any WWI era BB would have sunk.

[P3D]

I re-read the book about the wreck.

1. There were two large holes, corresponding to the two torpedoes that exploded. One of these exploded close to the bulkhead separating the two boiler rooms.
2. The other two torpedoes also hit the ship, but did not explode. Nevertheless, they broke the outer hull. The book suggested a theory that this could have caused a slow flooding of the coal bunkers.  This flooding could have been stopped easily by covering the leak, but went unnoticed. Which more or less agree with the long sinking time (3 hours).

The book is somewhat biased, however.