N4 Economic Outline (Not Finished)

[miketr]

Please wait till I have posted everything there is going to be a couple of cut and paste posts here.

1) Set your tax rate, thats how much money you have to spend for you government, see the growth rate, thats how much your core economy grows for next year.  We move to a once a year economic system instead of twice a year.

2) Green is peace time only, yellow requires MOD OK and red is general war level

3) Tax rates can go up a max of double of last years rate, so 3% -> 6% -> 12% -> 24%

4) The negative numbers for the higher tax rates are harsh but we want to avoid people going that high.

5) We looked at a bunch of historic tax and growth data and decided in the interest of KISS that a simple system was needed.  Hence no debt, very simplistic tax / growth rates, etc.

6) There is to be a trade system that will add another 20% of economy to play with.

Tax formula

0.5% - 2.5% for every 0.1% of a tax rate above 0.5% GDP growth rate decreases by 0.1%
2.5%+ for every 0.1% of tax rate above 2.5% GDP growth rate decreases by 0.05%

Tax Rate	GDP Growth	Rate Change
0.50%	5.00%	0.50%
1.00%	4.50%	0.50%
1.50%	4.00%	0.50%
2.00%	3.50%	0.50%
2.50%	3.00%	0.50%
3.00%	2.75%	0.25%
3.50%	2.50%	0.25%
4.00%	2.25%	0.25%
4.50%	2.00%	0.25%
5.00%	1.75%	0.25%
5.50%	1.50%	0.25%
6.00%	1.25%	0.25%
6.50%	1.00%	0.25%
7.00%	0.75%	0.25%
7.50%	0.50%	0.25%
8.00%	0.25%	0.25%
8.50%	0.00%	0.25%
9.00%	-0.25%	0.25%
10.00%	-0.50%	0.25%
11.00%	-0.75%	0.25%
12.00%	-1.00%	0.25%
13.00%	-1.25%	0.25%
14.00%	-1.50%	0.25%
15.00%	-1.75%	0.25%
16.00%	-2.00%	0.25%
17.00%	-2.25%	0.25%
18.00%	-2.50%	0.25%
19.00%	-2.75%	0.25%
20.00%	-3.00%	0.25%
21.00%	-3.25%	0.25%
22.00%	-3.50%	0.25%
23.00%	-3.75%	0.25%
24.00%	-4.00%	0.25%
25.00%	-4.25%	0.25%

[miketr]

Navalism Trial Startup  This looks to be much better.  I will attempt to pound out some economics.

Assumptions N$6,000 base economy
Tax rate 3%
5 Years spending spree
Added a Zero to all Army Costs
Corps Cost N$40 each, upkeep N$10/5/0.5
Citadels Cost N$20 each, upkeep N$0.5/0.025
N$1 = 1,000 normal tons of naval construction

=6000*.03*5=N$900




Turn 1 Test Economics

Banked from Turn 0: N$1.82

180-91.87=N$88.13

Builds

New Corps: N$40
Lay Down New PDN: 15,000 Normal Tons N$12 out of 15
Lay Down New PC: 5,000 Normal Tons N$5 out of 5 (finished 9+5=14 months so March 1of year 2)
Lay Down New PC: 5,000 Normal Tons N$5 out of 5 (finished 9+5=14 months so March 1of year 2)
Build Coast Defense Guns
Four 12" Disappearing Carriage, 0.25 each, N$1 all at Port A
Sixteen 6" Disappearing Carriage. 0.02 each, N$0.32, 4 each at all ports

Note have 158,750 Normal Tons of ships and 160,000 tons of ports support
Add 10,000 normal tons of support capacity to each of Port B & C, raising them to 35,000 tons each.  (N$10 + N$10)

Leaving N$4.81 to be banked.
New Bank Total: N$6.63

Tax Rate (Assuming 0.5% tax rate generates 5% growth rate and for every 0.1% increase in tax rate sees a matching 0.1% decrease in growth rate)

3% tax rate yields 2.5% growth rate.

N$ 6,000 * 0.025 = N$150 growth of economy


Questions to be answered?

Research and colonial costs

Army Purchase
Seven Corps 40*7=N$280
Eight Citadels 8*20= N$160
Army Total N$440

Balance for Navy N$460

Naval Bases:
Port A: 100,000 tons (N$100)
Port B: 25,000 tons (N$25)
Port C: 25,000 tons (N$25)
Port D: 10,000 tons (N$10)
Sub Total: N$160

Dry Dock A 150 * 23 * 10 * 0.6 = 20,700 tons (N$20.7) (Port A)
Dry Dock B 135 * 20.8 * 10 * 0.6 = 16,848 (N$16.848) (Port A)
Dry Dock C 60 * 9.2 * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312) (Port A)
Dry Dock D 60 * 9.2 * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312) (Port A)
Dry Dock E 135 * 20.8 * 10 * 0.6 = 16,848 (N$16.848) (Port B)
Dry Dock F 60 * 9.2 * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312) (Port B)
Dry Dock G 135 * 20.8 * 10 * 0.6 = 16,848 (N$16.848) (Port C)
Dry Dock H 60 * 9.2 * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312) (Port C)
Dry Dock I 60 * 9.2 * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312) (Port D)
Sub Total: N$87.804

Slipway A 150 * (150/6.5 = 23.07692 FR -> 23.08) * 10 * 0.6 = 20,772 (N$20.772)
Slipway B 135 * (135/6.5 = 20.76923 FR-> 20.77) * 10 * 0.6 = 16,823.7 (N$16.823)
Slipway C 60 * (60/6.5 = 9.230769 FR -> 9.23) * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312)
Slipway D 60 * (60/6.5 = 9.230769 FR -> 9.23) * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312)
Slipway E 90 * (90/6.5 = 13.84615 FR -> 13.85) * 10 * 0.6 = 7,479 (N$7.479)

Sub Total: N$51.626

460-299.43 = N$160.57 for ship construction


PDN = 15,000 Normal Tons x 5
AC = 15,000 Normal Tons x2
PC = 5,000 Normal Tons x10
TB = 150 Normal Tons x 20 = (150 * 20 * 1.25 TB/DD Mark up) = 3,750 Normal Tons

=158,750 Normal Tons (N$158.75)

Banked N$1.82
Turn One Economics

Tax Rate 3%
Economy N$6,000
Usable Income N$180

Army Upkeep
1 Corps Mobilized = N$10
4 Corps Conscript = N$20
2 Corps Reserve = N$1
8 Citadels Reserve = N$0.2
Army Upkeep = N$31.2

Port A: 100,000 tons (N$100) (2%) = N$2
Port B: 25,000 tons (N$25) (2%) = N$0.5
Port C: 25,000 tons (N$25) (2%) = N$0.5
Port D: 10,000 tons (N$10) (2%) = N$0.2
Sub Total: N$3.2

Dry Dock A 150 * 23 * 10 * 0.6 = 20,700 tons (N$20.7) (Port A) (20%) = N$4.14
Dry Dock B 135 * 20.8 * 10 * 0.6 = 16,848 (N$16.848) (Port A) (20%) = N$3.37
Dry Dock C 60 * 9.2 * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312) (Port A) (20%) = N$0.66
Dry Dock D 60 * 9.2 * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312) (Port A) (20%) = N$0.66
Dry Dock E 135 * 20.8 * 10 * 0.6 = 16,848 (N$16.848) (Port B) (20%) = N$3.37
Dry Dock F 60 * 9.2 * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312) (Port B) (20%) = N$0.66
Dry Dock G 135 * 20.8 * 10 * 0.6 = 16,848 (N$16.848) (Port C) (20%) = N$3.37
Dry Dock H 60 * 9.2 * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312) (Port C) (20%) = N$0.66
Dry Dock I 60 * 9.2 * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312) (Port D) (20%) = N$0.66
Sub Total: N$17.55

Slipway A 150 * (150/6.5 = 23.07692 FR -> 23.08) * 10 * 0.6 = 20,772 (N$20.772) (10%) = N$2.08
Slipway B 135 * (135/6.5 = 20.76923 FR-> 20.77) * 10 * 0.6 = 16,823.7 (N$16.823) (10%) = N$1.68
Slipway C 60 * (60/6.5 = 9.230769 FR -> 9.23) * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312) (10%) = N$0.33
Slipway D 60 * (60/6.5 = 9.230769 FR -> 9.23) * 10 * 0.6 = 3,312 (N$3.312) (10%) = N$0.33
Slipway E 90 * (90/6.5 = 13.84615 FR -> 13.85) * 10 * 0.6 = 7,479 (N$7.479) (10%) = N$0.75
Sub Total: N$5.17

PDN = 15,000 Normal Tons x 5  (20%) = N$15
AC = 15,000 Normal Tons x2 (20%) = N$6
PC = 5,000 Normal Tons x10 (20%) = N$10
TB = 150 Normal Tons x 20 = (150 * 20 * 1.25 TB/DD Mark up) = 3,750 Normal Tons  (20%) = N$3.75
Sub Total: N$34.75

Total Upkeep N$91.87

[miketr]

Note Worthy Changes

1) We use normal displacement not light

2) Corps have flat upkeeps for all generations, also since army units don't have bases or the like their upkeep is very high compared to naval units.  There is some debate on this point as some people think it needs to be lower.

3) Dry Docks, Ports and Slipways now have upkeeps.

[miketr]

The World and Nation Types

This or a map like it

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo219/CanOmer/V2_Blank_Sea.png?t=1281611693

Industrial Nations, these would be the player nations and the trainer nation small fry.  Can do research, build stuff, sell stuff, etc.

Civilized Nations, these nations are the most powerful type of Non Player Nations.  Their economy grows but they don't do colonial expansion but they might be willing to attack each other.  Their economies are strong enough to support armies and navies but they have to buy their gear.  Think South American nations of the 19th Century, they buy arms from industrialized nations, are investment targets (rail roads and oil), trade partners (they don't have merchant marines of their own though) and hoped for allies but are very hard to pin down.

You could try to conquer a civilized nation but the problem is they have firmly established national identities and they will keep trying to revolt and to force obedience would wreck their economies (figure 1/4 to 1/3 left after you spend 10 years crushing the revolts and kill off half the population).

Semi-Civilized Nations, these nations have some national identity, will typically be some type of monarchy but are not fully developed (figure banking and civil service is in the hands of foreigners brought in to do the job as corruption is rife within these nations).  Again they can have armies and navies of their own but such militaries because of state problems have serious effectiveness issues.     

A Semi-Civilized Nation can be colonized, think Egypt, Ottoman Empire, India and China.  It will not be easy but it is very possible.  The rule of thumb is you take over the administration and in theory the nation is still independent but in reality they are not.  See British in India (princely states) and Egypt especially.  Such nations might still revolt but are much more likely to accept an overlord / colonial master.  At least if you defeat a revolt or two it will end there and not be a yearly thing.

Things you can do with a Semi Civilized Nation.

1) Get a Treaty Port.  The Semi Civilized Nation hands over to a colonial power a port and surrounding territory, its one of those 99 year lease things.  A colonial power is much more efficient, players can invest some money into the territory and it will start growing.

2) Start expanding your treaty port into larger and larger area's.  This is what happened in India, South East Asia, etc.  Through treaties and warfare you start taking over larger and larger sections of the Semi-Civilized Nation till at last its gone.  Japan and China were on the path to this.

3) Other players might want to make things tough for you so they will provide military aid and arms.  This in effect is going to mostly drive up the cost of conquest but not stop it since semi civilized nations are so corrupt and in-effective.

Uncivilized Territories; think Africa.  There might be peoples but they are tribe level and have no national structures and are odds are illiterate.

All you can really do with take over such areas.  Spend lots of money to achieve the take over (traders, missionaries, explorers or even out right conquest) and you have a colony.  But without a great deal of investment such areas are not going to grow and are going to be negative cash flow for some time to come.  While you could send an entire division to take over such an area odds are a dozen people with a bunch of guns and some coins will work just as well.  Also such areas tend to be disease hell holes that kill off outsiders.

Forming a Colony in White Space.

Send a Brigade or similar unit to claim the location and spend cash.  If the colony is to have an economy of $X you need to spend $X * 2 to set it up.  This is for reasons of game balance rather than realism.

So there are lots of provinces and to build up a colony province by province will take time.  Each colony won't be all that expensive by itself but over time will build up in cost.

We seam about set for player economies having $6,000  and 6,000 * 0.03 = 180.  Out of that $180 players need to pay for their armies, navies and new construction.  We are talking about a very small amount of cash left over to play with.  So lets say players raise taxes to pay for a new colony.

3% goes to 4% and gets them another $60 to play with.  With the flat tax / growth chart of growth (0.5% tax rate gets 4% growth and every 0.1% increase in taxes reduces growth by 0.05%)  So national growth would go from 2.75% to 2.25%.  Which costs the player $30 of growth for their economy.

6,000 * 0.0275 = $165 vs. 6,000 * 0.0225 = $135

So even if the player spent the suggested 50% cost to establish the colony with $60 to play with that would allow the player to establish $120 worth of colonies.  Which would be 4 times as efficient as having lower taxes.

So to balance out colonies vs. taxes it looks like we need to have them cost 200% of the economy you get out of them.  So to establish a colony worth $30 you need to spend $60.

[miketr]

Last things

Minerals and Railroads

These issues had been debated from various angles and the final decisions on the subject was.  Not to bother with minerals, I need to reach check on railroads but I believe that was the answer there too.  In general it was decided that the paper work load it would generate simply was NOT worth the effort.

OK people are free to comment.

Obviously these are not finished rules, its cut and pastes from where debated end on them and has sat for in some cases months.  We need to wright these up into a final rules set.  But the core ideas are there.

[Darman]

The World and Nation Types

This or a map like it

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo219/CanOmer/V2_Blank_Sea.png?t=1281611693

Haha Rhode Island is so small it cant be divided up. 

My other comment on the map is: WOW.  Who divvied it up into provinces? 

I like the premise though. 
How does trade work?  Or is that forthcoming?

[Logi]

And people thought my ideas were complicated ::)

Alright:

1) I dislike tables, just putting it out there. I find them more complex than equations since they require searching up for each case whereas equations can simply be put into a calculator without access to the internet.

2) Why is the 5%-12% tax range moderator-approval required or war-required? The average tax rate for the poor was 8% and the middle class 10%-12%, the rich 20%-25% in the early 20th century. The only people that paid close to if not no taxes were the lower half of the poorest in the nations.

During war, the lower class paid 25%, and the higher bracket paid 90%. The current system doesn't nearly allow full war economies.

3) I believe railroads ARE worth the effort. Speaking economic, transportation infrastructure is about the only thing worth building by the government. Transportation infrastructure(like railroads) touch upon every still part of the economy, everything is dependent on it. Since they produce nearly triple the return and create one of the highest jobs creation to investment, their effect is profound.

But then again KISS.

---

Impression:
It's complicated, more so than our current system. I think the current mindset is that more complex than the current system is no good.

[TexanCowboy]

Logi, I truely apologize for calling your's complicated after looking at this...

[snip]

same here

[miketr]

And people thought my ideas were complicated ::)

No its simpler than the current system but very messy in terms of presentation.  This is a cut and paste of a bunch of stuff and very much in stream of thought mode.

1) I dislike tables, just putting it out there. I find them more complex than equations since they require searching up for each case whereas equations can simply be put into a calculator without access to the internet.

There is a nice formula included

2) Why is the 5%-12% tax range moderator-approval required or war-required? The average tax rate for the poor was 8% and the middle class 10%-12%, the rich 20%-25% in the early 20th century. The only people that paid close to if not no taxes were the lower half of the poorest in the nations.

During war, the lower class paid 25%, and the higher bracket paid 90%. The current system doesn't nearly allow full war economies.

You are looking at the wrong things this tax rate is of national economy and not of PEOPLE.  In the 19th century most state income derived from tariffs, excise taxes and the like.  No sale taxes and not much in the way of income taxes.  

The historic spending on military in this time period was 3% or under.  I would have to check my books again for percentage of GDP in WW2 but off the top of my head that topped out at 50% mark or so; Germany hit 30% or 40% 1938 as I recall.  Again in the interest of KISS it was decided on 25% as an upper limit.  If you have normal tax rate of 3% and in war can hit 25% thats at x8 increase.  A VASTLY better system than N3.

3) I believe railroads ARE worth the effort. Speaking economic, transportation infrastructure is about the only thing worth building by the government. Transportation infrastructure(like railroads) touch upon every still part of the economy, everything is dependent on it. Since they produce nearly triple the return and create one of the highest jobs creation to investment, their effect is profound.

For what its worth, I wanted railroads but was overruled, again I would have check notes to be sure.

Something to keep in mind this is a MILITARY budget, there is no investment in the civilian economy.  All of that is to be abstracted.

Impression:
It's complicated, more so than our current system. I think the current mindset is that more complex than the current system is no good.

Really?

Economy X Tax rate = Budget

- Spending
- Upkeep

Check for Growth rate, economy  X growth rate = New Economy for next year.

DONE

Seriously thats it.  Only thing that is more complex is we are requiring people to pay upkeeps on more things.  

Logi your budget system has half a dozen operations inside of it and cannot be done without excel.  

Michael

[miketr]

same here

Logi, I truely apologize for calling your's complicated after looking at this...

I request people re-read it and compare to what we are doing right now.  Note the number of math operations you are required to do in the current game, how many of those are being automated by an excel sheet?  There is no SUM function when you do it by hand.

Again the major addition is people are required to pay upkeep on naval infrastructure but in an excel sheet this is a minor issue.

Michael

[Logi]

Logi your budget system has half a dozen operations inside of it and cannot be done without excel.

I spent 30 seconds to write down the example countries and their values with a basic calculator. You don't need excel. Excel is just on the computer and easy to keep track of everything. Multiplication does not require excel.

Hell, if you gave me an extra 30 seconds, I could do it by hand too.

Seriously thats it.  Only thing that is more complex is we are requiring people to pay upkeeps on more things.  

That's exactly what I meant when I said it was more complex than our current system. It wasn't about the Budget calculation, it was the additional maintenance values.

I request people re-read it and compare to what we are doing right now.  Note the number of math operations you are required to do in the current game, how many of those are being automated by an excel sheet?  There is no SUM function when you do it by hand.

I do it by hand sometimes, takes 3-4 minutes. Not a big deal. Not ideal, but not a big deal.

----------

You do realize the only operations in my proposal are multiplication, addition, and division? And all values are rounded as well so you don't have to worry about decimal places.

[miketr]

The World and Nation Types

This or a map like it

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo219/CanOmer/V2_Blank_Sea.png?t=1281611693

Haha Rhode Island is so small it cant be divided up. 

Its stolen from Hearts of Iron or Victory

Michael

[Logi]

The World and Nation Types

This or a map like it

http://i377.photobucket.com/albums/oo219/CanOmer/V2_Blank_Sea.png?t=1281611693

Haha Rhode Island is so small it cant be divided up.  

Its stolen from Hearts of Iron or Victory

Michael

I recognize it as from Victoria 2.


I agree this isn't the most complex system. But the point is that it's more complex. And tbh, I don't really see the value of it.

You are looking at the wrong things this tax rate is of national economy and not of PEOPLE.  In the 19th century most state income derived from tariffs, excise taxes and the like.  No sale taxes and not much in the way of income taxes. 

You mean we're playing in the 1800s? Because that's what 19th century means. I was under the impression we would be playing in the 1900s. Then income taxes and sales taxes were implemented.

[snip]

Again the major addition is people are required to pay upkeep on naval infrastructure but in an excel sheet this is a minor issue.

And there I think is the main point. Some of us wish to avoid spreadsheets. Now I am not one of those people, but I know some who are who I otherwise might be able to convince to join up. Some of us are just looking for an environment to design ships in SpringSharp, not play a pencil, paper, and Excel version of Victoria II.