Logi's Economic Proposal

[TexanCowboy]

How is this an improvement over the current system? The budget part seems even more complex, and that's not even touching on the rules and tech, and ship building.

[Delta Force]

It would be good for a nation simulation game, but the primary focus of this particular game is not economics. With the budget process already being quite complex, I don't think that it would be prudent to adding an additional measure of complexity to the game.

[Darman]

If I'm understanding correctly he is trying to create a system where there is no BP any more, its all cash-based.  And the system is that governments tax their economies to get money, there is private investment within the economy that the government has little to no say in, and he is attempting to simulate both the taxation and its consequences as well as the investment of private capital.  He includes as part of his collection of numbers one which represents the demands of civilians and the country has to meet those demands.  

[Logi]

The budget part isn't complex. How complex is 12% of IC and 10% of BP? You realize the current system has an even more complex system of $1 per IC-Pop, $0.2 per IC over Pop, and $1 per pop?

You realize I did not touch on tech in this? You realize the factory production is virtually the same as in your proposal?

When I see the complex argument, it just makes me feel as though you didn't bother reading the post. You just saw a long post from Logi and decided that it was probably complex.

If I'm understanding correctly he is trying to create a system where there is no BP any more, its all cash-based.  And the system is that governments tax their economies to get money, there is private investment within the economy that the government has little to no say in, and he is attempting to simulate both the taxation and its consequences as well as the investment of private capital.  He includes as part of his collection of numbers one which represents the demands of civilians and the country has to meet those demands.  

Thank you, that is practically what this whole system means.



FAQ:
Q: There's so many numbers! What do I do?
A: Calm down. You only need to know your GDP and GDPin. Take 12% from the former and 10% from the latter and you're gold.

Q: But what about all the other numbers?
A: Don't worry about them. Unless you really want to learn the system, you don't need to know it as a player. They are values that you, as the player, have no say in.

Q: What's the DI -NPin+COM deal?
A: That just represents the country's obligation to serve the needs of it's people. If your NPin+COM is lower than your DI, build more industry.

[TexanCowboy]

How does, uh, communism work in this system?

[snip]

All your objections are, tbh, retarded. No offense meant

To bad, taken very offensively.

you still did not answer my question,

Why do we need this instead of the current system?

[TexanCowboy]

And how is it an improvement?

[Logi]

How does, uh, communism work in this system?

You replace the private sector investment (VE, GC) with tax revenue. As stated, you only get half value.

Basically, you get more tax, but your economy stops it's auto-growing (due to private investment) as you now own everything. Since investment by the nation is not as efficient (I think i forgot to switch NC/2 with NC/3) with the money gained from cutting the private sector, your economy will stagnant over time.

To bad, taken very offensively.

Sorry. I was frustrated with the focus on complexity when it was not complex. Of all things, complex was not the problem with the system. Questions like Texan's just now were what I wanted, they make sense and clarify things. Insisting it's complex, when I showed that it's not that at all, over and over isn't good discussion.

you still did not answer my question,

Why do we need this instead of the current system?

I believe Darman answered it for me better than I would have answered it so I deleted my answer.

he is attempting to simulate both the taxation and its consequences as well as the investment of private capital.  He includes as part of his collection of numbers one which represents the demands of civilians and the country has to meet those demands.  

And how is it an improvement?

The current system leaves the degeneration of the economy due to war or expanded budgets up to moderator discretion. Also as you asked, the current system doesn't allow systems like communism, since everything is either war economy or not war economy.

In addition, it adds realism without adding complexity. I find the current system a good deal more complex than my proposal.  Nations don't tax 50% and get to say how the private  sector spends it's money (as our current system says).

Also this system forces trades between players due to DI deficits. Basically it includes the need for a country to fulfill the demands of it's peoples. Something our current system fails to consider at all.

[snip]

I agree with what you are saying as to the flexibility it allows the players and as long is it is computerised (which as Nobody showed is easily possible) is simple to operate. I feel however, that the current system and others like like it are to complex for a game like this. That is the point I have been trying to get across. Evidently I did not do a good job with that. For that , I appoligise as it led to needless anger.

Sorry. I was frustrated

It happens to everyone, me included.

[Logi]

I see want you mean now. You mean complex in idea form, not in actual doing.

I have no cure for that. I like complex ideas, as they more closely tied with reality, but I understand that most hate bean-counting so I made it simple to calculate. If the problem is not the ease of calculation, but the complexity of idea, I can do nothing about that.

[snip]

I see want you mean now. You mean complex in idea form, not in actual doing.

Yes.

I have no cure for that. I like complex ideas, as they more closely tied with reality, but I understand that most hate bean-counting so I made it simple to calculate. If the problem is not the ease of calculation, but the complexity of idea, I can do nothing about that.

To each there own. Despite being a math major, I will never willingly set foot in a stats class.

[ctwaterman]

Where is my K factor..... where... where oh oh where.


Ok.....  Statistical Analysis Classes aside *Nasty they Hurts us my Precious*....
I think we should all slow down take a pill and let Miketr finish posting stuff from the N4 Discussion Forum.


Oh and if everyone decides to go Restart we are talking months and months of work before we are ready for a restart.  So slow down take a seat and get a twisted Ice Tea.   Maybe even work on the current game while things get organized.

Charles

[Logi]

You K factor as well as N factor are to be decided. Since the N and K factors are highly dependent on how we convert the values over, it's open to discussion what those values could be.

I can't take it on myself to say each economy converts this way, so I made it open to discussion. My proposal is only on how the economy works, not how it converts from one system to another (since industrialization level is not an exact science).

[ctwaterman]

Its an art form nobody has really mastered yet especially if you look at the Mess the US congress has been making of the issue for oh the last 30 years.

[Logi]

Not really. the art of economics have been for the most part, understood. The current economic model is based on Keynesian economics, which he himself admitted as wrong before he died. In fact, many of the OutofBoundsExceptions are the result of misunderstanding what economics is actually saying.

The result why the US congress has been making a mess on the issue for decades is simple. They are a third-party. They don't lose much from any mistakes they make. They are more concerned about their careers. Hence, they never admit wrong and continue propagating the same wrong methods in order to keep their jobs.

It doesn't help that most people don't know a spark of economics and actually think government intervention is good. I mean, when the government intervened after the great depression, unemployment only soared from 6.3% (it had dropped by 5-6% naturally in less than a year) to 11.7% and remained in the double digits as long as the government continued intervening.

And then we keep regurgitating the same policies because it's the right political climate for them. People want intervention (although it's bad) and Congress wants to keep their jobs. It's no surprise we've only been getting worse.