Conserns about sim speed

[Logi]

The system being kicked around behind closed doors is a tax based system.

Why behind closed doors?

BP's go away, its a pure cash system.

I suppose that makes sense, but I still believe some form of solid value for production is necessary to distinguish between pure cash and pure materials.

On the other hand, any system to check this I can think of would be a fair deal complex.

[miketr]

The system being kicked around behind closed doors is a tax based system.

Why behind closed doors?

Heard of the phrase too many cooks in the kitchen?  Me and P3D spent lots of time chucking economic numbers are one another from dusty books.  There were some debates on how to do the exact tax rates / growth numbers but general agreement on the concept.

I suspect if this goes forward we will re-start work.

BP's go away, its a pure cash system.

I suppose that makes sense, but I still believe some form of solid value for production is necessary to distinguish between pure cash and pure materials.

On the other hand, any system to check this I can think of would be a fair deal complex.

That is the question.  KISS vs. Realism, they directly conflict in terms of playability.  The kiss school won out to a point.

Michael

[snip]

The system being kicked around behind closed doors is a tax based system.

BP's go away, its a pure cash system. 

You set a tax rate of X% and you get that much money to play with and the economy grows the next year by Y%.  You can spend cash on troops, tech, ports, ships, colony investment, etc.  Your economies core growth though is your tax rate, low taxes are good, and high is bad.

Michael

Make sense

[Sachmle]

I like the idea of not tying research down to the timeline as well.  I feel like it discourages people from leaving the historical timeline because we have already tied ourselves down to it. 
For research, I feel that it shouldn't be tied to industrial capacity either, because that puts smaller nations at a huge disadvantage in researching technologies. 

Umm...that's kinda the point. Small nations cannot keep up with big nations. That actually seems to be kind of a big issue in the background. There has to be small and medium nations, just like there has to be large nations. Yet it seems a fair number of people think that everyone is going to be equal. Parity does not work in the grand scale of world politics. If everyone is equal, then no one can use their clout to impose their political will on others. Parity does not work in warfare, or you get a never ending stalemate (or a dog pile). Without small and medium nations, who will buy ships or materials from the other nations? We have enough trouble now getting any kind of foreign ship market, let alone something close to OTL.

[Valles]

We have enough trouble now getting any kind of foreign ship market, let alone something close to OTL.

...Why would we want one? No, seriously. If we're here to do warship design, wouldn't a wide variety of independent developments be better, leading as it does to a variety of subtle variations?

[Logi]

My main problem with that is focus. The current rules pretty much force small nations to research more slower than larger nations no matter what. In reality, I believe it really depends on research funding.

In general, yes, larger countries were more advanced because they were able to afford a larger R&D budget. However, if a small nation wants to have a small military and large R&D budget, it should not be prevented from doing so. My main beef is that the current rules do prevent that. It forces a limited r&D budget.

I like the idea of not tying research down to the timeline as well.  I feel like it discourages people from leaving the historical timeline because we have already tied ourselves down to it. 
For research, I feel that it shouldn't be tied to industrial capacity either, because that puts smaller nations at a huge disadvantage in researching technologies. 

Umm...that's kinda the point. Small nations cannot keep up with big nations. That actually seems to be kind of a big issue in the background. There has to be small and medium nations, just like there has to be large nations. Yet it seems a fair number of people think that everyone is going to be equal. Parity does not work in the grand scale of world politics. If everyone is equal, then no one can use their clout to impose their political will on others. Parity does not work in warfare, or you get a never ending stalemate (or a dog pile). Without small and medium nations, who will buy ships or materials from the other nations? We have enough trouble now getting any kind of foreign ship market, let alone something close to OTL.

[Darman]

Logi expressed my feelings pretty well.  I agree that there need to be small nations and large nations.  But why can't I, as a small nation, field a small but technologically advanced military?  Because I can't afford the IC and BP to sustain massive long-term research programs.  Its not that I think being smaller is unfair, its the restriction on R&D that seems to me to be unfair.  I can max out my R&D budget every year and I'll never catch up with the big boys, even in only one type of technology. 

[Sachmle]

Sorry, I'm in the Realism camp, not the "Stuff that never happened in RL but would be fun" camp as far as some things go. If you can find a analog of a small nation, in the late 19th/early 20th century, that had an advanced but small military that didn't get there by buying stuff from GB, Germany, US, etc.. I'll bite. But I doubt you will.

[TexanCowboy]

Ok; me and Snip have been throwing around idea's behind closed doors either. Something that will do away with all of the clutter, and, frankly, pain that results from trying to write a Navalism sim report...

[Valles]

Sorry, I'm in the Realism camp, not the "Stuff that never happened in RL but would be fun" camp as far as some things go. If you can find a analog of a small nation, in the late 19th/early 20th century, that had an advanced but small military that didn't get there by buying stuff from GB, Germany, US, etc.. I'll bite. But I doubt you will.

And yet, in the modern era, where technological progression is so much more complex and specialized, a place like Sweden can turn out at least solid B-list gear like the Gripen. Funny, that.

[snip]

to add to Tex's post: It is still in the planing stage, and has some problems that need to be worked on. But the framework is there. Give both of us some time to finish up the school year and we should have it finished quickly

[Darman]

Tex: Are you two ready to go public with it yet?

Sachmle: I don't consider GB to be a "large" country.  With its empire yes.  But what "small" countries were there?  And how are you defining small?  Ireland is small, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Ireland try to become a center of learning (i.e. research) because its situation on an island somewhat protects it from land invasions.  

Valles:  In the modern world England has pretty decent military hardware as well and I wouldn't call them "large" anymore. 

I just generally feel like if a country didn't do it OTL doesn't mean they couldn't have done it, and the rules as they currently are don't allow anyone to try it. 

[snip]

Darman: We are working on some finishing touches. Maybe later tonight. We also have a back story lined up, so it could almost be a plug-n-play deal.

[Delta Force]

We could just move to a cash (as opposed to cash and tonnage) based system of doing things, but have reasonable limits to prevent small countries from constructing battleships, since they wouldn't really be able to independently run a shipbuilding industry that large that only constructs battleships every few years for the navy.

Then you could have countries like Brazil able to purchase warships. If you really wanted, you could have player or NPC privately run shipyards to construct ships for those unable to do so themselves. Countries were a lot less stingy about trading with potential enemies and with rivals back then, so it would be reasonable for countries to not have very much control over what their arms companies sell to people. After all, Austria-Hungary developed the triple turret originally for a Russian project, while at the same time importing boilers and turbines from the United Kingdom.

[Logi]

There was a bit about N4 economies here: http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=1247.0