Maximum Twin Turret Armament Study

[Logi]

Sachmle's work is interesting, but looking at Agincourt, or say Arkansas, I don't think 35% of the ship was off limits.

In SS, the turrets must be placed aft of the forecastle and forward of the Quarterdeck. Since his design has forecastle set to 20% and quarterdeck to 15%, he only has 65% of the ship's length to place turrets.

-Forecastle (20 %):   22.97 ft / 7.00 m (19.69 ft / 6.00 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m

[Kaiser Kirk]

Yes, as Sachmle has the defaults in place, he only has 65% of the ship to work with.

But- I don't think those defaults are requisite. I think historical examples can be found where the 'ends' were shorter- not measuring it appears that way on Arkansas for example.

So, declaring NEDs based on smaller than necessary portion of hull, and including superfluous barrels, seems a possibly flawed evaluation.

[Sachmle]

Yes, as Sachmle has the defaults in place, he only has 65% of the ship to work with.

But- I don't think those defaults are requisite. I think historical examples can be found where the 'ends' were shorter- not measuring it appears that way on Arkansas for example.

So, declaring NEDs based on smaller than necessary portion of hull, and including superfluous barrels, seems a possibly flawed evaluation.

I never said the defaults were requisite, just that in Delta Force's SS those where the ones he used. I'm going off his SS.

As to the barrel over run, fine. It frees up 52'. So, if he can squeeze his superstructure/funnels/deck level casemates (all 9 per side) into 52' than it fits.

[Delta Force]

It would appear that Agincourt used a single flush raised deck fore, and one that was much shorter than what SS gives as the standard length (around 30% of total length for the raised decks instead of 40%). In addition, guns were mounted on the raised deck.

[Sachmle]

[Kaiser Kirk]

I never said the defaults were requisite, just that in Delta Force's SS those where the ones he used. I'm going off his SS.

As to the barrel over run, fine. It frees up 52'. So, if he can squeeze his superstructure/funnels/deck level casemates (all 9 per side) into 52' than it fits.

Sorry if I hit a button, but since the initial response seemed to be an outright rejection of the possibility of fitting the armanent on a ship that length, where one considers that armanent to be sited makes a difference.
Perhaps it Can't fit on 240m,   but that was the initial discussion.

In this matter, you seem to have nicely shown that Delta Force's use of a 512 ft citadel is inadequate and the citadel at least needs to be extended. 

[Sachmle]

Button...yes. Sorry if I responded coursely.

[Delta Force]

Looks like the superstructure on the Agincourt was around 168.75 or so feet long in total length.

Approximating the amount of deck space the turrets and their guns take up. For approximation sake and looking at drawings of the Queen Mary and Agincourt's turrets this seems to be the ratio, we'll assume that each turret has the same length as the gun, so 50.625 feet is the length of each gun and turret. The superfiring turret's guns are almost entirely over the top of the turrets below.

The aft pyramid takes up 50.625 feet (for the guns that goes over the quarterdeck) + 50.625 feet (the superfiring turret) + 101.25 feet, for a total of 202.5 feet for the pyramid.
The admidships pyramid takes up 101.25 feet + 50.625 feet + 101.25 feet, for a total of 253.125 feet.
The fore pyramid takes up 50.625 feet (for the guns that goes over the forecastle) + 50.625 feet (the superfiring turret) + 101.25 feet, for a total of 202.5 feet for the pyramid.

So, the total length needed for the turrets is 658.125 feet. Agincourt by comparison needed only 450 feet for turret length using this approximation. So the ship needs an additional 208.125 feet, but has only only added 115.9 feet. An additional 92.225 feet is needed in additional length, or some turrets need to become wing turrets.

Another idea is that the fore and aft pyramids could retain a superfiring turret, but have a turret be placed next to them (a modified wing turret configuration in essence, with one turret being able to fire over the other). If the superfiring turret were placed on opposite sites, the ship would then gain firepower in some aspects of the frontal and rear arcs, and would still be able to bring 16 guns to bear in broadside.

[Logi]

Or you could use 4 quad turrets. Voila, deck length issue resolved.

[Delta Force]

Or you could use 4 quad turrets. Voila, deck length issue resolved.

Yeah, this is a textbook case for using triples and quadruples.

[mentat]

Good to see pics of Agincourt - great name and good looking ship

- with same layout - wondering if 7 x 3 x 320/330 mm would fit in the 35 k ton limit  ;D

[Kaiser Kirk]

Good to see pics of Agincourt - great name and good looking ship

- with same layout - wondering if 7 x 3 x 320/330 mm would fit in the 35 k ton limit  ;D

Well, I recall managing 5x4x330mm on one...but you're really eating into your speed and armor choices. Laydown year winds up making some difference due to machinery and bunkerage.