Discussion of Logistics ?

[Blooded]

Hello,

More points of note...

General Tech Level
Maoria's Army is an indicator of the general tech level of the country. In this case 1/3 of the nations army is at the 1905 level, with 2/3s at the 1865 level(ACW!). Coupled with 1905 Amphibious tech(Russo-Japan war), pre 1900 Signals tech, 1902 Aircraft(wright brothers) and 1909/1912 Naval propulsion all suggests that Maoria is a fairly backwards, poor and relatively primitive nation. This needs to be noted in regards to what they are trying to accomplish.

Merchant Marine

I believe the Merchant marine totals were in GRT. GRT is more a function of space than weight in this case. Bythe rules one trooper uses 4 tons of space for a long distance haul. Dont forget to add tonnage for ammo and food(ie military supplies-though they pack more efficiently). Oh.. and dont forget wastage. You can expect 10-25% of your supplies to be ruined by leaking seawater, mold and rats in the old tubs. Newer military transports would solve many of these problems, but Maoria has none.

As to ship size, GRT would correspond more closely to our normal tonnage.

Basically, I see no general AP in Maori's support ship list. Looking around at P3Ds, Rock Docs and Korpens transport SS's confirms my opinion that a 3000 ton light ship is around 5000 normal and can hold around 2000tons of stuff. So GRT is not directly translateable to tonnage carried in SS(real world as well). Larger and more modern ships get better in this regard but most of the merchant fleet will average around 20 years old(true up to WW2 for the most part). Given the primitive state of Maori Military propulsion(generally 10 years ahead of civiliian machinery) we can expect some very slow coal simple expansion(pre1885) and many VTEs and a few sailboats.

I got more efficient in my Russian small AP designs; 1000 light tons to 1000 load on a 1500 ton normal ship. That ratio seems the best I can do(2/3rds load to GRT). And I am using below waterline load as cargo only so it is actually smaller(below 50%). I have to base it on SS models. SS is generous but so are our rules. So 500men to a 5000 ton ship seems about right.

Springsharp some merchants up to see how well you can do.

So valles has 600,000 GRT total. Not ALL of this is worthy of inclusion. Most nations would have around 25%-50% of the total in small coastal craft(500ton and under). Maoria probably would not have that high of an amount(no close friendly neighbors) as smaller vessels would be almost solely for interstate trade, transport and fishing(I expect many of maoris small vessels would be fishing trawlers). So maybe 10%-15% would be 300 tons and smaller vessels. good for a dunkirk but not for oceanic invasion.

Roughly 10% of any fleet can be expected to be laid up at any given time(overhauls, broken down, unsafe, too far away to return to Maoria in time to take part, etc.). So I would suggest that 25% of the Maori merchant Marine cant even take place in this assault.

That only leaves say 300,000 usable tons for a 600,000 GRT overall fleet(at a 2/3s load ability-ie. packed to the rafters). That equals 75,000 men at best(ie. very generously in Valles' favor). Who is carrying the military supplies needed for this adventure? i would suggest that 33%-50% of that tonnage would be needed for supplies.

I still feel that kind of coordination would require 1945 USN levels of skill. I think the best they did was 7 divisions on Okinawa over 2.5 months. Say 2 Corps with TRUE 1000 ship fleets(consisting of 12000 ton APs). That is a tough act to follow.

So... Valles cant land 3 corps almost 4000(apparently) miles away at will. his merchant marine is too small, and logistics are not ready for that kind of effort. He would need at least 1920 tech to consider it IMO. And 3x the fleet. AT LEAST.

The Assault

Dont forget the 1905 amphibious tech(this shows the level of naval-land logistics and assault capability). If terrain is considered like Hawaii or Phillipines then limited landing areas are possible. See ports and non-windward sides of islands plus natural coves(all non-port coves and beaches tend to have coral built up just off shore-not good for the bottom of shallowdraft boats-many will be used as firewood or surfboards after this; also ships cannot get close to shore-anchor a couple miles out).

I would have the attack get widely scattered(due to tech, weather and actual inexperience-practice only helps so much) landing all over the place with heavy losses to cohesion and supplies(ala DDay paratroops). Men drop packs and weapons just to get ashore. Heavy weapons... forget about it... Takes days to start grouping up(this also works in maori favour as the swiss have to scatter to deal with all of it).

Defender in port will cause heavy losses(it is not anywhere officially that I can find but ALL ports have built in defense units-CDs) I remember it being stated years ago(so in general people didnt have to worry about CDs). The bigger and more important the port the worse the guns defending it will be. Those CDs plus the defending battalion(maybe more) stationed close by will cost Maoria heavy(see Khota baru-UK defence of malaya-also considered the first 'official' over the beach amphibious assault). Most landing Quays will be blocked by local craft hurried into position. Perhaps some haphazard random mines scattered about. Considering the urgency of the situation.

I believe Amphibious assaults are THE toughest military action that can be undertaken. It wasn't until the late 30s OTL that they even became truly possible(with proper landing craft). That is not required in Navalism but I would say it is still a few years off(and a few costly blunders as well). OTL Japanese ARMY and Naval Infantry in 1941 led the world in capability(Good landing craft, the first huge amphibious warfare ship, They had several division sized landings under the belt in China-not direct assaults- but land and march style). OTL US Marine Corps in 1941 led the world in theory and were testing the best equipment(LCIs and amtraks).

Neighbors

I find it impossible to think that the DKB would not be aware of this collosal undertaking. DKB citizens have to be around the Maori ports. It would take months to gather up all the shipping, etc. The DKB would at first assume it was aimed at them. As more info comes in they would relax and plan. A fleet shadow could be expected at a minimum. Other nations could become aware at various times(due to sig Int, or military vessel stumbing on it). If I was the DKB(or another) I would have informed the swiss just a day or so before the Maori arrival to cause maximum damge to BOTH parties. Relieving my military cocerns considerably.

This event should not just be a fait acomplice. Too many others could have influenced events.

BTW... DF still has not posted his 2H1919 report let alone his 1H1920 one (though I am sure he has them done) so he could alter his makeup quite a bit. Putting this event on hold until he can catch up only seems fair, unless you consider him a nonplayer which would be fair by the rules. Though I would frown upon it.

[Blooded]

Howdy

Not trying to beat a dead horse but here is some of the info I have on the opening moves for the IJN on Dec 7, 1941.

Most of this is compiled from Parillo's Japanese Merchnt Fleet in WW2(great book BTW) and the USSBS (US strategic bombing survey). These particulars and the layout are from a well researched(but generally considered flawed) Hawaii Invasion scenarios called Operation Tinkerbell(I think it was at AHF-Axis History Forum).

Japanese Merchant Fleet as of Pearl Harbor Day.
(From the USSBS, pp32, Vol 9)

Cargo ships.
20-100 tons - 742,935 tons
100-500 tons - 442,163 tons
500-1000 tons - Number: 264 - GRT: 198,036
1000-3000 tons - Number: 527 - GRT: 1,055,224
3000-6000 tons - Number: 486 - GRT: 2,330,577
6,000-10,000 tons - Number: 219 - GRT: 1,603,219
10,000+ tons - Number: 19 - GRT: 234,087

Total: 1,515 ships of over 500 tons.
(5,431,143 +742,935 + 442,163 GRT) = 6,616,241 GRT

Of this grand total, the Army mobilized 2.16 million tons to lift and supply it's forces in all theatres and the navy mobilized over 1,800,000 tons of all types. Of the army total, 1,350,000 tons was used to attack the Philippines and Malaya. The remaining balance of 810,000 tons was used to,

"supply for units on the Asian mainland, convoys to the South China Sea ports and sundry other missions employed the remaining tonnage."

Kaigun, 75

It has not proven possible to ascertain exactly the composition of these mobilizations, but the following give a rough idea. Caution: these totals are only roughly accurate in many cases.

Naval Merchant Mobilization

Type..................................Qty...........................Tonnage
Ammunition Ship..................3...............................16,637
Cargo ships........................18...............................78,977
Miscellaneous.....................13..............................55,485
Hospital Ships......................4...............................33,491
Minesweepers.....................75..............................19,829
Netlayers............................16..............................16,338
Oilers.................................37...............................330,228
Converting to oilier................1................................10,008
Avgas Ship..........................2................................9,492
Assault Transport................54...............................282,418
Repair ships........................3................................19,375
Submarine Tenders..............9................................75,510
Seaplane Tenders................6................................40,420
Aviation support ship............1................................17,272
Aircraft transport..................8................................50,355
Water tanker.......................3................................7,095
Collier.................................2...............................12,522
Auxiliary Carrier program......6...............................118,613
Auxiliary Cruiser program....10...............................72,414
Gunboats/Subchasers........110.............................167,866

The remainder of the IJN mobilization is yet to be accounted for.

Identified army transport shipping:

AP: 141 ships, 829,259 tons (1st Wave in Southern Operation and all waves of Philippines operation as well as Guam)
AP: ? ships, 485,000 tons (Malaya 2nd Wave operations)*
AP: ? ships of about 775,000 tons (supply China and Korea and misc. army vessels)

(* - Malaya follow-on convoy information is difficult to uncover. It is possible that the bulk of the 485,000 tons quoted was employed in transporting forces to Saigon just before the war, and not in the actual attack itself.)

Total IJA: 2,089,259
Total IJN: 1,434,345

Total IJN/IJA mobilization: about 4,000,000 tons
Total accounted for: 3,523,604
Total yet unaccounted for: about 475,000 tons

The majority of merchant vessels mobilized were used as assault transports (AP's) to haul troops. AP's were employed to attack the following targets in December
1941 looked something like this:

Operation....IJA Ships.........Tons.........IJN Ships......Tons.........Total....
Thailand.............1..............6,650..............0...............0.............6,650
Kra (Malaya).......7.............46,453.............0...............0...........46,453
Singora (Mal).....11.............84,877............0...............0............84,877
Patani (Mal)........6.............47,781.............0...............0............47,781
Kota Bharu(Mal)..3.............26,751.............0...............0............26,751
Mal (2nd Wave)...?........... .485,000*..........0...............0.........485,000*
Aparri (Phi).........7.............37,694.............0...............0............37,694
Vigan (Phi).........5.............28,049.............0...............0............28,049
Legaspi..............4.............28,737.............2............9,886.........38,623
Borneo...............6.............27,143.............3...........20,202........47,345
Davao.................7.............36,104.............7...........44,795........80,899
Lingayen(Phi).....69............379,457...........0...............0...........379,457
Lamon (Phi).......20............111,972...........4............23,366......111,972
Gilbert Isl............0.................0................4............31,029........31,029
Wake Isl.............0.................0.................2...........17,034........17,034
Guam.................0.................0.................8...........36,969........36,969

* - tonnage of Malay 2nd wave inferred from known tonnage devoted to first wave and known total tonnage devoted to Malay campaign.


Infantry units employed

Malaya:.............5th I.D., 18th I.D, Guards Division. (25th Army)
Philippines:......48th I.D., 16th I.D., 65th Brigade (14th Army)
Burma:..............33rd I.D., 55th I.D. (15th Army)
Hong Kong:......38th Division (South Expeditionary Army)
Guam:...............South Seas Detachment (from 55th Division)
Wake:...............Maizuru SNLF
Davao:..............Sakaguchi / Miura Detachments


In the weeks and months to follow, subsequent offensives were conducted by various forces in conquering the islands of the Malay Barrier:

Unit..............Date.................Transports.........Positions taken
Group 1...Dec to Feb 9th........47,200..........Menado, Kendar, Macassar
Group 2...Jan to Feb 20th......100,300.........Ambon, Timor
Group 3...Jan-Feb 10th...........94,400.........Balikpapan/Tarakan/Band
Group 4..........Feb.................100,000........Palembang
Group 5..........Mar.................572,300........Batavia, Surabaya

* - Bandermason

Infantry Units Employed:

Group.......Units........................................................Men
Group 1....Sasebo, Yokosuka SNLF..........................2,120
Group 2....Kure 1st/3rd SNLF, Elements 38th Div.......7,120
Group 3....Kure 2nd SNLF, 56th Regimental Grp........6,500
Group 4....Elements, 38th Div, Yokosuka Para............???
Group 5....Elements, 48th, 2nd, 38th Division..............???


Note on follow-up wave estimates: I've found only sketchy information concerning the composition of the follow-up waves (Jan 11th to March 1st). The average transport in December 1941 weighed in at about 5,900 tons. In most cases, the number of transports employed in a particular group is exactly or approximately know. I've simply multiplied this total x 5,900 to come up with the tonnage estimate.

Summary of army assault transport usage in Southern drive.

December 1941: 1,350,000
January: 241,900 (plus tonnage still supplying Malaya/Philippines)
February: 341,900 (plus tonnage still supplying Malaya/Philippines)
March: 572,300 (plus tonnage still supplying Philippines)

This shows what tonnage was used to invade a given area, they were all 'over the beach' and 'march to objective' for the most part. Most were also short hops by a nation notorious for overloading and inefficiency. But it still gives some perspective on mobilization(which took most of a year overall with particular efforts seeing the japanese MM virtually gone from the waves internationally, the last few months), ship types and tonnage used.

I will try to find my Operation Albion book. It is much closer to our timeframe.

Hope this is useful for later.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Posted this up on a discussion thread before somewhere


It's probably a bit more detailed than we need, and likely optimized for Baltic/Med transits,
but could be tweaked to be specific to a hypothetical default Corps.

I will say we are starting to diverge significantly from simply Moari war discussions.

[ctwaterman]

I have moved the Discussion of pure logistics for logistics sake to a new topic and out of poor Valles and Fox's war.

Charles

[Darman]

Out of curiosity, Egypt has no merchant marine whatsoever, would it be possible for me to "build" one by a system where every halfyear I have a drydock/slipway unused by the military some enterprising soul is utilizing that space to build a merchant vessel commensurate to the size of the drydock/slipway available?  At no cost to the government, of course.  Just sort of want Egypt to have a merchant marine so I can requisition it  :o

[miketr]

Build some of these Darman.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3272.msg37334#msg37334

Michael

[Kaiser Kirk]

Bavaria's in the same situation - very small merchant marine.

I'm guessing a previous incarnation of Navalism allowed the government to subsidize a merchant marine. $x + Xbp = N GRT Merchants, and that survived on the sample spreadsheet when I started.
But originally I was told it had been pulled to allow the mods to tinker with.

So It's one I've asked several times to have finished and reinstated. Would have been nice when I had lots of spare BP. :(