Battle Gripes

[Logi]

Navweaps shows the range of the German 11" /45 as being 22Ky after 1915 with 3 rounds per min.

Yes, but that was under 22.5 degrees elevation whereas the Russian gun used 25 degrees elevation.

[ctwaterman]

*sighs*...

Be Nice everyone...

Now...

Here is the problem with nearlyeveryone OOB and Encylopedia Pages.   If I look at the bottom of you ship and I dont See Fire Control Listed then unless I am really really boored I probably am not going to take the Time to go looking at the Misc Weight and guessing at what you had intended to do with that weight.

Same with Doctrines.   A written up Doctrine is nice but not if as Blooded stated its spread out over 7 different threads and in a hundred different posts.   And No this is not a critism of just Logi heck its a Critisism of most of us.

An example and I appologize to ledeper for using him as an example.  I did eventually find the OOB for the ESC Scapa Squadron.   But the original search of the Encylopedia went back to 1915.   I found what I was looking for in his Sim reports however.

The Critism here is that just because a player knows what his fleets doctine is suposed to be doesnt mean We the mods will remember the posts that outlined that doctine or even the PM that sent that doctrine directly to US.   I have what 1200 PM in my mail box and I am pretty good about deleteing at least 100 per week out of it...

I like to include in my SS the tonage reserved for Fire Control and more importantly the FC type actually installed on the Ship.   And yes I know its a pain in the asposterior to keep those pages up to date.

[TexanCowboy]

You abandoned your country after starting the damn war in the first place! Wasting many peoples time and efforts! Complaining now is worse than poor sportsmanship, it is plain sad.  Angry

MY BAD! Why don't you write my god damn resumes and get a decent score in 4 AP courses!

Son, I've got 4 5s and 1 4s on my AP exams last year....

[Logi]

Son, I've got 4 5s and 1 4s on my AP exams last year....

Son, we go to different schools, hard to compare courses. The point is I got work to do, we're not having a bragging match about who has more work.

[Kaiser Kirk]

I don't even have to take exams anymore. Expect I'd flunk any that came my way. At what I do, I'm pretty darn good. All and all, the discussion of AP exams is pretty irrelevant to me...and I'm not even sure just what type of exams they are :)

Still, some valuable lessons :
At the beginning of a war -
1) make sure your OOB is up to date.
   1a) note any special purpose squadrons. I'm guilty of this- I've referred to the Nachtjaegers once or twice, but thats it.
2) make sure your misc weight is spelled out- otherwise it's still in the crate.
3) if you have a specific doctrine or philosophy, and its' not in your encyclopedia, make sure to spell it out at the beginning of the war.
   3a) One flaw with putting this in the encyclopedia is then folks can peek.
   3b) For example, I have maps of the invasion routes France, Ukraine and Hapsburgs would likely take in a war, and wrote a plan for dealing with one of those invasions. I haven't posted them as I don't want to tip my hand should it come to that.
4 ) when writing the SS notes, include year of FC/Armor, etc.

[ctwaterman]

Adding to Kirks Notes.

Make sure the Guns on your ship are the Tech Year you used to create them.  Not the lay down date of the ship.  Newer guns have longer ranges, higher elevations in the turrets and might be lighter if you didnt increase the 12"/45 to a 12"/55  :o

On the other hand a brand new battle ships using a turret and gun you developed in 1895 well its still a breach loading gun but its range is probably what 5000 Yards no matter how good the Fire Control.

This is why some people have new guns constantly on their R&D lists.

[P3D]

On the other hand, refurbishment brings an older ship to almost "up-to-date" standards. That should include raising max. gun elevation in old turrets.

Make sure the Guns on your ship are the Tech Year you used to create them.  Not the lay down date of the ship.  Newer guns have longer ranges, higher elevations in the turrets and might be lighter if you didnt increase the 12"/45 to a 12"/55  :o

On the other hand a brand new battle ships using a turret and gun you developed in 1895 well its still a breach loading gun but its range is probably what 5000 Yards no matter how good the Fire Control.

This is why some people have new guns constantly on their R&D lists.

[ctwaterman]

A refurbishment might bring it up to date but I think it would take a partial rebuild of the turrets to increase max elevation and such.

But a Simple note at the Bottom or top of the spring sharp work for this as well.
Durring the 1920 scheduled refurbishment the Main Gun Turrets were partially rebuilt to increase there rate of train and max elevation to modern standards.

That still wont replace that 1890 Dahlgreen gun with a 1920's Era weapon even if they both are 6"  ;)

[miketr]

See above the ships couldn't break off and couldn't fire back so that left only to close.  Besides both sides armor might as well have not been there, I chose the title I did for a reason.  Lastly note that as soon as the RRC ships could fire the went broadside to broadside and stopped trying to charge in.

Problem is that given the closing speed of the Russian ships, had the RRC ships turned back. It would have be at least 5 hours before the Russians got into range to fire on the RRC ships. By that time, chance for support was much greater. They did have ample speed to attempt a disengage or at least flee til support arrived.

And when the DD's are dry on fuel?  So you are suggesting as soon as ANY ship was detected they run for it.  So they never left port because they saw coal smoke right off port from various shipping.  The Russians had to be let into battle ranged to be identified and it wasn't going to take 5 hours to force an engagement, I am sorry.

I gave them a range of 24000 yards and the RRC ships a range of 22000 yards.  The Ruskies fought w/ FC and could do something with the range.

Really? That's curious as I have the range of the Russian 12"/52 at 25 degrees as 26 kyd (due to shellform factor) and the RRC 11"/45 at 25 degrees as some 25000 yds. As Blooded's 12"/52 is the same as the hisotrical 12"/52 russian gun, it's range is 25,000-27000 yd.

There is theoretically no range the Russians can engage at (under support of their FCS) that the RRC ships could not fire back at. Even at lower elevations, the RRC guns have enough range to fight at 24 kyd, perhaps not the accuracy if they are counted as not having FCS, but they had the range.

MOOT

Michael

[Logi]

And when the DD's are dry on fuel?  So you are suggesting as soon as ANY ship was detected they run for it.  So they never left port because they saw coal smoke right off port from various shipping.  The Russians had to be let into battle ranged to be identified and it wasn't going to take 5 hours to force an engagement, I am sorry.

What? The plume for a battle squadron is very distinctive. And the RRC doesn't need to identify a battle squadron to run, it's not likely to be friendly. That fact that RRC squadrons, which mission was to bombard, not engage enemy ships, would wait until a squadron-level smoke cloud (heading for them) was within identification range is preposterous. What did they need identification for? Their mission had nothing to do with engaging merchant ships nor any ships for that matter. Why would they wait til an squadron of ships, obviously not on their side, to enter range to run?

Not to mention, the smoke from a merchant ship and the smoke for a battle squadron is worlds apart! In addition, merchant ships approach at a much slower rate than the Russian battle squadron. You can detect a significant difference between a ship moving at 8 kts and a ship closing in at 28 kts. The smoke trail tells. Somethings you don't need to see with your eyes to confirm.

The DDs should have went for a torpedo charge.

[ctwaterman]

*slaps forehead*

Damn were lucky then that the Russian Lena Class Scout Cruiser are Oil and not Coal Fired therfore there was no massive "Identifiable Smoke Plume" that said here be enemy War Ships instead of a large smoke plume that said here be Huge Enemy Convoy with no Escorts  ::)

Commanders of Scout Cruisers who dont take risk who dont close to identify the enemy ships dont get promoted.   If that smoke plume had been from say an Old Armored Cruiser, and a few Destroyers escorting say 20 Merchant Ships loaded with Russian Infantry and Tanks into harbor you would no be pinning a neat little ribbon to his Chest.

But it wasnt it was a Pair of Russian Scout Cruisers faster then his own ships  the only chance of escaping is to force the Russians to break off or lame them so your ships can get away to do that you have your guns and your Destroyers Torpedoes.  To give the Destroyers a realistic chance you have to give them some covering fire.

Honestly Im tired of the Gripping if you dont want to put your theoretical toys at risk dont engage in wars.  Because I like being able to say Hey Mike or P3D or [any one of the other People Who Volunteer their time and effort] do you have a few hours to sim a battle for me so we can have some semi realistic fights to druel over.

Now we can spend days or weeks arguing schemantics over the outcome but its all about statistical probability.   And the decisions of Hypothetical Commanders in Hypotherical Situations in Hypothetical SHIPS.... It is supposed to be fun.  And if a few electrons were harmed in the generation of that fun well not even Peta is going to complain about that.  :D

[Logi]

Honestly Im tired of the Gripping if you dont want to put your theoretical toys at risk dont engage in wars.  Because I like being able to say Hey Mike or P3D or [any one of the other People Who Volunteer their time and effort] do you have a few hours to sim a battle for me so we can have some semi realistic fights to druel over.

I have no expectation that anything I say right now will change anything. TBH, I don't want to change anything. I don't want Miketr to resim the battle. Simming a battle is time-consuming, I'm not asking for that. That would be inconsiderate of me.

I'm merely stating my opinion and we're discussing about what could have went wrong with the sim. I always encourage discussion, regardless of how well done an effort is, because it's only by spotting any errors that we make better sims. And if there were no errors, at least it is good discussion and hopefully we can take something from it! That's why i always try to look for an error in the sim or anything in the sim worth focusing on.

I always took for granted that you all understood whenever I challenged  or talked on at length about something that it was in the interest of promoting discussion. Hell I've been doing that ever since I joined the sim. I find no fun in throwing theoretical toys against each other and ending things like that. I find the real fun in the discussion in the aftermath.

Damn were lucky then that the Russian Lena Class Scout Cruiser are Oil and not Coal Fired therfore there was no massive "Identifiable Smoke Plume" that said here be enemy War Ships instead of a large smoke plume that said here be Huge Enemy Convoy with no Escorts  Roll Eyes

You see? I had overlooked that.

[ctwaterman]

I'm merely stating my opinion and we're discussing about what could have went wrong with the sim. I always encourage discussion, regardless of how well done an effort is, because it's only by spotting any errors that we make better sims. And if there were no errors, at least it is good discussion and hopefully we can take something from it! That's why i always try to look for an error in the sim or anything in the sim worth focusing on.

I always took for granted that you all understood whenever I challenged  or talked on at length about something that it was in the interest of promoting discussion. Hell I've been doing that ever since I joined the sim. I find no fun in throwing theoretical toys against each other and ending things like that. I find the real fun in the discussion in the aftermath.

Ok as long as were just excerising our god given right to to complain.  ;)

It says so the right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness...  and Im not happy unless im complaining about something.... :o

I just dont want to scare off people Im trying to pawn work off on... a friend is not something you use and discard there to be used over and over and over again... 8)

[miketr]

The DDs should have went for a torpedo charge.

OK so you haven't ID the enemy squadron, you turn and run at first sighting of a blob on the horizon; see Charles for when you see that blob and why.  You send in your DD"s to do a torpedo attack on ships that had light cruisers for escorts.  10 minutes later your DD's are all DEAD and the enemy continues to follow you.   I wasn't kidding when I said your guy had very few choices here.

Michael