Battle Gripes

[TexanCowboy]

Logi, you gave up control of the RRC when you decided to quit...at that point, the doctrine, etc., whatever, is not in your hands, but in the hands of the mods/player of RRC. This is much like stuff we went over at WW with Fyrwulf, and for those who remember that; wasn't fun at all.

[Logi]

Logi, you gave up control of the RRC when you decided to quit...at that point, the doctrine, etc., whatever, is not in your hands, but in the hands of the mods/player of RRC. This is much like stuff we went over at WW with Fyrwulf, and for those who remember that; wasn't fun at all.

I won't shoot you, but I am dissatisfied. Feel free to ignore my ramblings, I am no longer in charge of the RRC, so I am nothing but a nobody. I appreciate the effort greatly, Miketr. I simply didn't think it was an accurate sim. My apologies if you were offended.

Read before stating the same thing I said myself. No?

[TexanCowboy]

Was being typed when you posted.

[Blooded]

Your main complaint seems to be over doctrine(specifically long range engagements). This was by all definitions was a long range battle as only main guns fired. Where is your doctrine posted? Keeping in mind what you have techwise and what has been spent on the navy and how the ships are designed(thickish tall belts plus upper belt preference over the deck suggests mid to low range armor protection).

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4470.msg50964#msg50964
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4597.msg52530#msg52530
Here is your 1/18 and 2/18 reports. They show nothing spent on FC or overhauls.

Really? I don't know why I have a file listing the overhaul states of various ships in 1918 as well as a large BP cost for the replacement FCs for some of these ships. Perhaps it's not counted if I don't list it separately and include it in the overhaul cost?

Of course it is not counted if you dont say what it is for or pay for it. And every penny is stated what is was for with nothing stating overhauls or FC.

and to conduct bombardment missions.

Another thing I forgot to mention, RRC large ships are primarily designed as multipurpose bombardment ships. That is, their main purpose is to bombardment enemy shoreline. For this, a high elevation is desired, and results in the RRC turrets having high elevation. I have never sent the large ships out when bombardment was not their main mission.

That is what they were doing. They were not aware the Russian ships were in the area as far as I know(somewhat recent arrivals from the other side of the world). The RRC had dominated the MK fleet in heavies, so they would be expecting a DD or air attack. As to engaging he had no choice. The Russians were 3 knots faster and the RRC ships were closing on the Quingdao area to bombard, so a little ways from home.

in an area in which the RRC has hundreds of aircraft conducting recon and dozens of small ships engaged?

The RRC has NO airfield close to Quingdao. The Russians built one in 1919 and have 1917 aircraft based there. Your air superiority disappeared January 1. snip had not written about the naval or air side of the 1920 war. I stated I would do a couple of things. Time has been pressing so I had not the chance. Miketr had posted a bit of boredom so I asked him so do up a battle for fun.

Laertes(the new RRC commander) had stated no desire to do the detailed stuff and no longer even wants the RRC fleet. He wanted to start from scratch. For what it is worth Russia was planning to take the RRC fleet as war reparations. Now there is little of worth left. So as stated I am not happy with the result either.

But I knew what could happen and wanted to have fun with it anyway. I through the dice and lost.

You abandoned your country after starting the damn war in the first place! Wasting many peoples time and efforts! Complaining now is worse than poor sportsmanship, it is plain sad.  >:(

[Logi]

Edit: Sorry, I blew my top. I get very pissed whenever someone tries to imply that I'm a lazy bastard, precisely because I know how much work I have to do.

[Blooded]

In this scenario, with the Russian spotted, the RRC ships should have turned back. If they went at full speed back to Shanghai, it would be ~250nm out of Shanghai before the Russians catches up (that is figuring coal-fired boilers can't run at sustained full speed for any decent period of time). Maybe thirty minutes before either side achieves a hit.

By then the distance from Shanghai is ~235nm and any squadron in the local vicinity has had hours to come up to support the ACs. In addition, the Destroyers should have turned and launched a torpedo charge against the Russians even in heavy fire, disturbing the Russian chase line and slowing them down in evasion maneuvers to buy even more time for the fleeing ACs.

In other words, had the pseudo-Admiral not engaged, there was a high chance he could have gotten off scot-free.

Finally at least a somewhat valid point. Others able to comment on the pre-event disagreed with what the admiral could/would have done.

20,000 yards is a long ways out. You cant get ship IDs at those distances. The shenghzi CBBs are of a similar size and easily defeatable by the Huang Huns. So running from them could be considered traitorous. So they would have been engaged before they could flee. You are concerned with a 10 minute window at best. that is a very small window of opportunity.

and any squadron in the local vicinity has had hours to come up to support the ACs.

assuming they were available and ready to go.

Odds are the DDs would have died as well. You can pick apart any battle. People are still doing so with Jutland 90 years later. I dont care for the results but they dont stick out like a sore thumb like so many other navalism battles.

[miketr]

I asked the mods for what FC the two ships had since they are listed with NONE in their SS reports.  The answer I got back was none so they fought without FC.

As a note the way I handled FC is its a bonus to hit not a hard limit on effective range. The problem was without the bonus to hit they had no chance of hitting outside of 20,000 yards.

They have 300 MISC weight. I just out the distribution as the standard distribution as 1x250t FC, 1x25t Long Range Wireless, and the rest as torpedo weight.

Does this mean all the damn ships in the RRC navy are taken as to be without any FCS or supporting items whatsoever? Because I took for granted it was understood a darn BC-BB with at least 250t misc weight would have a FCS on it.

See above I asked because what the break done wasn't noted.  I cc'd the mods every step of the way and the answer I got was no FC.  

First of all 30 degree elevation in this time period is unhistorical let alone anything higher; those are WW2 ranges.  16 degrees is more impressive for the time period.

Second even with elevations so high without big enough range finders they can only shoot effectively to X range.  Again I was asked what FC and armor the ships had and for the Chinese ships I was told NONE.

Armor NONE? The Russians had an armored belt of 3", the Huang Hun and Li Ming has an armored belt of 7". How does that equate none?.

As Blooded noted KC vs. Improved KC.  Don't worry both sides armor was equally useless at all battle ranges.

The battle ranges the RRC seeks had good reasons. The RRC can not afford decisive engagement. At close ranges, one of the ships MUST go down. The force of the RRC is to stay back at long range and disengage or widen the combat range enough that the RRC ships can retreat to safety. There is nothing the RRC navy gains from a decisive engagement as it does not the the BP to replace such lost ships. Any decisive engagmeent will lead only to a Pyrrhic victory, no matter how great the victory. That is why under no circumstances does the main RRC navy close in for a decisive engagement. The Screen is, ofc, a different matter.

See above the ships couldn't break off and couldn't fire back so that left only to close.  Besides both sides armor might as well have not been there, I chose the title I did for a reason.  Lastly note that as soon as the RRC ships could fire the went broadside to broadside and stopped trying to charge in.

Furthermore, the RRC has typically smaller calibers than it's enemies and that means less range. In order to increase range without changing the caliber of the gun, the natural solution is to increase gun elevation. The RRC doctrine would never allow such a handicap as to be outranged greatly especially since doctrine is to fight at distance and disengage.

Ships lack the speed to do what you describe.

And if 30 degrees is unhistorical, why is the Russian 12"/52 with 40 degrees elevation alright?

I gave them a range of 24000 yards and the RRC ships a range of 22000 yards.  The Ruskies fought w/ FC and could do something with the range.

20,000 yards is EXTREME range for the time period.  The admiral charged in on ships that were faster than his own to close the range to allow effective return fire.  He had no other choice other than to attempt to break contact and with a 3 knot disadvantage in speed that wasn't likely.

The idea is to break no matter how unlikely and call for support. If the admiral manages to delay long enough for a support group to arrival, then he will be able to escape. The standing RRC order is for all torpedo bombers, naval bombers, destroyers, etc. in the nearby vicinity to immediately answer any request for support by the squadron. Even then, the RRC has a superior number of guns and to close the range by masking his own turrets is suicidal, to throw the one ace down the toilet.

Logi I was given an OOB and asked to fight it out, Charles said cool on the results.  I had no info on other forces, etc.

Michael

[miketr]

Logi, Blooded, please I am happy to answer questions but lets be civil?

Michael

[Logi]

See above the ships couldn't break off and couldn't fire back so that left only to close.  Besides both sides armor might as well have not been there, I chose the title I did for a reason.  Lastly note that as soon as the RRC ships could fire the went broadside to broadside and stopped trying to charge in.

Problem is that given the closing speed of the Russian ships, had the RRC ships turned back. It would have be at least 5 hours before the Russians got into range to fire on the RRC ships. By that time, chance for support was much greater. They did have ample speed to attempt a disengage or at least flee til support arrived.

I gave them a range of 24000 yards and the RRC ships a range of 22000 yards.  The Ruskies fought w/ FC and could do something with the range.

Really? That's curious as I have the range of the Russian 12"/52 at 25 degrees as 26 kyd (due to shellform factor) and the RRC 11"/45 at 25 degrees as some 25000 yds. As Blooded's 12"/52 is the same as the hisotrical 12"/52 russian gun, it's range is 25,000-27000 yd.

There is theoretically no range the Russians can engage at (under support of their FCS) that the RRC ships could not fire back at. Even at lower elevations, the RRC guns have enough range to fight at 24 kyd, perhaps not the accuracy if they are counted as not having FCS, but they had the range.

Logi I was given an OOB and asked to fight it out, Charles said cool on the results.  I had no info on other forces, etc.

I understand that, I am simply expressing an opinion.

On another note, it would be ideal if a mod could move my post and all the responses thereafter to another thread. I apologize for cluttering the thread up with mere opinion debates.

[P3D]

If I agree to help with battles again.  SHOOT ME.

Welcome to the club of simmers. You are criticized by both warring parties. One side blames you as they lost capital ships due to the misinterpreted crystal clear instructions (and despite that their naval doctrine was available on the forum scattered in a mere seven threads). The second side blames you as their admiral played coward and did not pursue their fleeing opponents to finish them off once for all, which will cause them to inevitably lose the whole war. The skewed numbers on gunnery and torpedo hit figures show you are clearly biased toward both parties anyways.

:P

[Kaiser Kirk]

If I agree to help with battles again.  SHOOT ME.

Michael

ROFL.

Hey, no easy outs :)

[Blooded]

You did not state your reasons for leaving as such. You had left stating you did not have the time or desire to redo paperwork.

Sorry for my blowout as well, but I have been a bit bitter and feeling a little guilty since then(since I had pointed out the report errors and just wanted corrections so the RRC was not gaining an advantage it did not deserve).

[Logi]

Just a curious question, you just note the faster RoF of the 11" over a 12", correct?

[Blooded]

Navweaps shows the range of the German 11" /45 as being 22Ky after 1915 with 3 rounds per min. The russian 12/52 at 25-27ky at 25degrees max and 1.8-3 round per min.

At long range the ROF is very low(as it takes 30 secs or so just to fly there). It looks like mike/seekrieg used 3 salvos every 2 minutes.

[snip]

Mods, could the descutions of the battle please be relocated to a different thread? Thank you.