Battle Gripes

Started by Logi, March 30, 2011, 07:22:44 AM

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Logi

QuoteGeneral Quarters was called for on all 8 ships of the squadron.  

Very soon Zhou came to regret his choice, a lookouts reported a faint contact on the horizon.  Then a pair of destroyers dispatched reported back 2 large contacts and 6 medium, Russians.  A Pair of Russian Scout Cruisers and Svetlana class light cruisers.  No ability to break contact and its clear they were moving to engage him.  "Signal the squadron, we will advance on the enemy!"

Where did the Light Cruisers, Yuyou and Chongqing go? For that matter, where did the battleship squadron that was supposed to operate in the same squadron as the Yuyou, Chongqing, Huang Hun, and Li Ming, go? As far as I remember, the Battle Squadron was never just Huang Hun, Li Ming, and a few destroyers. It was always the whole battleship force of the RRC, the light cruisers, the destroyers, and the Huang Hun and Li Ming.

QuoteAdmiral Zhou knows his ships lack modern fire control so he must close the range as quick as possible so he will angle into the Russian ships giving them an angle on his bow for what is otherwise a reciprocal course.

The Huang Hun and Li Ming have modern fire control, of the same tech level as those on the Russian ships. They were overhauled a bit after gaining the tech, around 1918 (when they were required to be overhauled as well), attaching the upgraded fire control.

Also RRC fighting doctrine demands long range fire. Under no circumstances are Admirals allowed to fight a close right battle, the ships are simply not designed for it. If Admiral "Zhou" is the sort of Admiral to close range voluntarily, he would have never made it to Admiral rank.

QuoteThe Chinese could only reply with their bow weapons; except those were out of range.

The Huang Hun and Li Ming have the arrangement of one turret bow, one aft, two amidships (able to fire across beam). Wouldn't it have at least 4 guns, should have 6 guns, available to fire? if i understand the angle of approach right, only the aft gun should be masked.

QuoteThe Chinese could only reply with their bow weapons; except those were out of range.
WHAT? For a 11"/45 gun, the gun needs to only to be elevated to 25 degrees to get a range of 24,000 yds. With an emphasis on long range fire, all RRC turrets have the ability to elevate at least up to 37 degrees. The Russian gun can elevate 40 degrees.

QuoteLi Ming is hit twice, one shot passes through an un-armored section of hull failing to arm while the second hits the armored conning tower.  The Russian 12" shell cuts through the 6" armor of the tower and easily penetrates, killing everyone in the tower including Admiral Zhou.  It will be several minutes before the Captain of Huang Hun can establish control.

Again, doctrine states that the conning tower is not to be used very often, and that most people take other positions in the superstructure with better sights. This goes hand in hand with the emphasize on long range fighting. At long range, the chance of a shell hitting everywhere on the superstructure is much lower.


.... Whilst the RRC is no longer under my control, I feel this is a skewed battle in favor of the Russians, through taking away technology on the side of the RRC and altering doctrine for RRC ships. As such, I feel as though the battle was hugely biased in the Russian's favor.

ctwaterman

Hmmmm...

Perhaps the Battle was fought because the RRC Battle Ships all of them were too slow to get in and get out without facing attack by swarms of small craft.  An attempt to bombard the coast to slow MK advance with faster ships really did need to be tried and if it wasnt for the Presence of the Russian Egg Shells....

Given that the 1908 Fire Control Tech gives accuracy out to 12K yards and this fight occured out to around 20K yards...??????  Your ships were engaged in a long range engagement a very long range engagement.   Attempting to close into accurate range under 20K Yards is expected of admirals.

Now look at the Title...
Egg Shells Armed with Sledgehammers ????

Your Ships came withing 1 Dud Shell roll of winning this fight.   Had that shell detonated in the Russian Ships Shell Handling Room the Russian Ship is gone.  You achieved that hit beyond the range of your Fire Control Tech!

Given that none of the Large Cruisers in this fight have any Immune Zone to each others guns I and how large the Shell Rooms, and Engineering spaces are anything that hits outside the Super Structure is likely [Statistically] to be a very damaging hit.   The Russian ship lost a Boiler Room and nearly blew up when one of your shells penetrated the shell handling room.

Given that the only reason one of your ships was lost was an uncontrolled fire well thats just plain old bad luck.    With just a smidge of luck my hoped for result could have occured...
2 Ships fire broadsides at each other around 18K yards both achieve a couple of hits.   And then Both Blow up in an explosion to make Tex Proud.
Just Browsing nothing to See Move Along

miketr

#2
Quote from: Logi on March 30, 2011, 07:22:44 AM
QuoteGeneral Quarters was called for on all 8 ships of the squadron.  

Very soon Zhou came to regret his choice, a lookouts reported a faint contact on the horizon.  Then a pair of destroyers dispatched reported back 2 large contacts and 6 medium, Russians.  A Pair of Russian Scout Cruisers and Svetlana class light cruisers.  No ability to break contact and its clear they were moving to engage him.  "Signal the squadron, we will advance on the enemy!"

Where did the Light Cruisers, Yuyou and Chongqing go? For that matter, where did the battleship squadron that was supposed to operate in the same squadron as the Yuyou, Chongqing, Huang Hun, and Li Ming, go? As far as I remember, the Battle Squadron was never just Huang Hun, Li Ming, and a few destroyers. It was always the whole battleship force of the RRC, the light cruisers, the destroyers, and the Huang Hun and Li Ming.

The battle was fought with the OOB I was given, sans me changing out some of the older DD's for more modern ones.


Quote from: Logi on March 30, 2011, 07:22:44 AM
QuoteAdmiral Zhou knows his ships lack modern fire control so he must close the range as quick as possible so he will angle into the Russian ships giving them an angle on his bow for what is otherwise a reciprocal course.

The Huang Hun and Li Ming have modern fire control, of the same tech level as those on the Russian ships. They were overhauled a bit after gaining the tech, around 1918 (when they were required to be overhauled as well), attaching the upgraded fire control.

Also RRC fighting doctrine demands long range fire. Under no circumstances are Admirals allowed to fight a close right battle, the ships are simply not designed for it. If Admiral "Zhou" is the sort of Admiral to close range voluntarily, he would have never made it to Admiral rank.


I asked the mods for what FC the two ships had since they are listed with NONE in their SS reports.  The answer I got back was none so they fought without FC.

As a note the way I handled FC is its a bonus to hit not a hard limit on effective range. The problem was without the bonus to hit they had no chance of hitting outside of 20,000 yards.


Quote from: Logi on March 30, 2011, 07:22:44 AM
Also RRC fighting doctrine demands long range fire. Under no circumstances are Admirals allowed to fight a close right battle, the ships are simply not designed for it. If Admiral "Zhou" is the sort of Admiral to close range voluntarily, he would have never made it to Admiral rank.

20,000 yards is EXTREME range for the time period.  The admiral charged in on ships that were faster than his own to close the range to allow effective return fire.  He had no other choice other than to attempt to break contact and with a 3 knot disadvantage in speed that wasn't likely.

Quote from: Logi on March 30, 2011, 07:22:44 AM
QuoteThe Chinese could only reply with their bow weapons; except those were out of range.

The Huang Hun and Li Ming have the arrangement of one turret bow, one aft, two amidships (able to fire across beam). Wouldn't it have at least 4 guns, should have 6 guns, available to fire? if i understand the angle of approach right, only the aft gun should be masked.


See my note above about don't pay close attention to the courses; its called flavor text.  The Chinese ships turrets were masked through the early part of the battle, then the one wing turret could fire and then broadside fire but not the cross decking mounts.  Note that the one Chinese AC is firing even though she lost a turret in the early part of the fight.  I don't always report every little bit of detail, for example I never reported number of shots in a salvo.

Quote from: Logi on March 30, 2011, 07:22:44 AM
QuoteThe Chinese could only reply with their bow weapons; except those were out of range.
WHAT? For a 11"/45 gun, the gun needs to only to be elevated to 25 degrees to get a range of 24,000 yds. With an emphasis on long range fire, all RRC turrets have the ability to elevate at least up to 37 degrees. The Russian gun can elevate 40 degrees.

First of all 30 degree elevation in this time period is unhistorical let alone anything higher; those are WW2 ranges.  16 degrees is more impressive for the time period.

Second even with elevations so high without big enough range finders they can only shoot effectively to X range.  Again I was asked what FC and armor the ships had and for the Chinese ships I was told NONE.

Quote from: Logi on March 30, 2011, 07:22:44 AM
QuoteLi Ming is hit twice, one shot passes through an un-armored section of hull failing to arm while the second hits the armored conning tower.  The Russian 12" shell cuts through the 6" armor of the tower and easily penetrates, killing everyone in the tower including Admiral Zhou.  It will be several minutes before the Captain of Huang Hun can establish control.

Again, doctrine states that the conning tower is not to be used very often, and that most people take other positions in the superstructure with better sights. This goes hand in hand with the emphasize on long range fighting. At long range, the chance of a shell hitting everywhere on the superstructure is much lower.

Admirals who want to live for any length of time time hide behind armor; those exposed tend to get hit by flying derbies.  Would you rather he was killed by when a 2 foot long shard of steel cut him in half when he was standing out in the open?  The critical hit said the admiral was killed.


Quote from: Logi on March 30, 2011, 07:22:44 AM
.... Whilst the RRC is no longer under my control, I feel this is a skewed battle in favor of the Russians, through taking away technology on the side of the RRC and altering doctrine for RRC ships. As such, I feel as though the battle was hugely biased in the Russian's favor.


I knew how this battle was going to end in broad terms as soon as I had the OOBs.  That said the Russians nearly lost it when the RRC ships kept getting lucky hits, they had a 1/4 the to hit chances and still managed to nearly take out one of the Russian ships.  You should have seen some of the emails I got from Blooded when I explained to him the risk his Scout Cruisers ran taking on the RRC Armored Cruisers.  There always was a chance for the Russians to loose this and badly, and that is nearly what did happen.

The one RRC as Charles said was lost to a near botch on a damage control roll.  The fire went out of control and the crew never managed to contain it.

Hope this clears up the questions.

Michael

Logi

QuoteI asked the mods for what FC the two ships had since they are listed with NONE in their SS reports.  The answer I got back was none so they fought without FC.

As a note the way I handled FC is its a bonus to hit not a hard limit on effective range. The problem was without the bonus to hit they had no chance of hitting outside of 20,000 yards.

They have 300 MISC weight. I just out the distribution as the standard distribution as 1x250t FC, 1x25t Long Range Wireless, and the rest as torpedo weight.

Does this mean all the damn ships in the RRC navy are taken as to be without any FCS or supporting items whatsoever? Because I took for granted it was understood a darn BC-BB with at least 250t misc weight would have a FCS on it.

QuoteFirst of all 30 degree elevation in this time period is unhistorical let alone anything higher; those are WW2 ranges.  16 degrees is more impressive for the time period.

Second even with elevations so high without big enough range finders they can only shoot effectively to X range.  Again I was asked what FC and armor the ships had and for the Chinese ships I was told NONE.

Armor NONE? The Russians had an armored belt of 3", the Huang Hun and Li Ming has an armored belt of 7". How does that equate none?

The battle ranges the RRC seeks had good reasons. The RRC can not afford decisive engagement. At close ranges, one of the ships MUST go down. The force of the RRC is to stay back at long range and disengage or widen the combat range enough that the RRC ships can retreat to safety. There is nothing the RRC navy gains from a decisive engagement as it does not the the BP to replace such lost ships. Any decisive engagmeent will lead only to a Pyrrhic victory, no matter how great the victory. That is why under no circumstances does the main RRC navy close in for a decisive engagement. The Screen is, ofc, a different matter.

Furthermore, the RRC has typically smaller calibers than it's enemies and that means less range. In order to increase range without changing the caliber of the gun, the natural solution is to increase gun elevation. The RRC doctrine would never allow such a handicap as to be outranged greatly especially since doctrine is to fight at distance and disengage.

And if 30 degrees is unhistorical, why is the Russian 12"/52 with 40 degrees elevation alright?

Quote20,000 yards is EXTREME range for the time period.  The admiral charged in on ships that were faster than his own to close the range to allow effective return fire.  He had no other choice other than to attempt to break contact and with a 3 knot disadvantage in speed that wasn't likely.

The idea is to break no matter how unlikely and call for support. If the admiral manages to delay long enough for a support group to arrival, then he will be able to escape. The standing RRC order is for all torpedo bombers, naval bombers, destroyers, etc. in the nearby vicinity to immediately answer any request for support by the squadron. Even then, the RRC has a superior number of guns and to close the range by masking his own turrets is suicidal, to throw the one ace down the toilet.

Logi

#4
QuoteGiven that the 1908 Fire Control Tech gives accuracy out to 12K yards and this fight occured out to around 20K yards...HuhHuh  Your ships were engaged in a long range engagement a very long range engagement.   Attempting to close into accurate range under 20K Yards is expected of admirals.

Such an Admiral would be eternally stuck in the rank private and would never be given control of a ship. The RRC will not and cannot close to close range as that put the ships at play into a decisive engagement where one or the other must sink. The RRC cannot afford something the size of a BC lost, no matter how great the victory. Any Captain, let alone Admiral, who pushed a large ship into decisive engagement, would instantly be demoted to Private and sent to scrub deck floors for all of their career, even if they managed to win without a single scratch.

QuoteI knew how this battle was going to end in broad terms as soon as I had the OOBs.  That said the Russians nearly lost it when the RRC ships kept getting lucky hits, they had a 1/4 the to hit chances and still managed to nearly take out one of the Russian ships.  You should have seen some of the emails I got from Blooded when I explained to him the risk his Scout Cruisers ran taking on the RRC Armored Cruisers.  There always was a chance for the Russians to loose this and badly, and that is nearly what did happen

The problem is in this battle, the RRC ships were simmed out of their doctrine, meaning out of their intended uses. So it is VERY obvious who would have won. You threw a  long-range navy into a short range battle and called it fair. I couldn't care less how close the battle was, the point is you ignored any doctrine of the RRC and threw them together. I would be content even if the RRC lost both ships, so long as they had operated via their correct doctrine and were given their correct gear.

THAT, I feel, is a real sim. This battle, I'm afraid, cannot be called such.

Sachmle

Quote from: Logi on March 30, 2011, 02:33:37 PM
Such an Admiral would be eternally stuck in the rank private and would never be given control of a ship. The RRC will not and cannot close to close range as that put the ships at play into a decisive engagement where one or the other must sink. The RRC cannot afford something the size of a BC lost, no matter how great the victory. Any Captain, let alone Admiral, who pushed a large ship into decisive engagement, would instantly be demoted to Private and sent to scrub deck floors for all of their career, even if they managed to win without a single scratch.


20,000yds is NOT CLOSE RANGE in 1920. It's barely MEDIUM RANGE in 1940.

So RRC doctrine is to sit outside the range that they may hit the enemy and stick their tongue out at them? If closing to a range where you can achieve hits is a demotable offense, how are you to ever hit the enemy? Or are the ships just for looks?
"All treaties between great states cease to be binding when they come in conflict with the struggle for existence."
Otto von Bismarck

"Give me a woman who loves beer and I will conquer the world."
Kaiser Wilhelm

"If stupidity were painfull I would be deaf from all the screaming." Sam A. Grim

Blooded

Hello,

While I catch up on the reading... heres some initial points.

Your Naval pages tell nothing other than the SS. I noticed you have misc set aside for FC but FC costs $. I could find nothing in your reports stating that FC for these craft had been paid for. Russian 1908 FC has been paid for specifically but I did discover that unless you spend the $ AGAIN they do not upgrade to the new model 1912 FC. I had not spent for the second level yet so I could not engage at even further ranges.  :'(

The layout of Invincible, VdT or Indefatigable seemed the most logical comparison. Thus only occasionally you can get a shot from the cross side mount. I problem I noted was that the 4" ATB guns are mounted along the sides as well, making their simultaneous use impossible and masking the side guns even further. Since nothing was specifically noted that seems generous enough.

Your ships are the largest and best build for China to date.   :)  The RRC was new and has little of her own tech so claiming they are some super advanced vessels doesn't float. Ships of the period had 15-20 degress of elevation. Russia was unusual that she had designed her newer fleet (post 1905) with 30 degrees. This was the best in the world at the time. 18,000 yards would be very long range for the time without the experience(IE WW1 to back it up). Unless specific techs or $ spent would suggest it, just saying your ships are all about long range seems unfair at best. Your ships spent most of their time in reserve to save money. Perhaps if they were actually out practicing(ie. at wartime upkeep) your suggestion would be more valid. I feel the same about Korpens and any others claims to long range shooting. As with all your other 'news' claims , they never had the tech or $ to back them up. Put your $ where your mouth is next time.  ;)

Your ex-fleet has been at war for awhile and has recieved damage. They can not always operate together. Since the MK could not resist except with DDs(and occasionally a monitor), they could grow complacent as well(not to say they did). To assist the ground troops they would need to be present as much as possible so sending a few at a time for hit and runs could keep up pressure against the MK forces. Tying fast cruisers to slow BBs makes their speed pointless and their armor dangerously thin. IF they had been scouting for the BBS the result would have been the same. I used the german hit and run bombardments as the model. I had no access to your old OOBs or surviving units, so I used what info I had.

Russian had arrived in Quingdao by the end of January. They had not caught anybody yet. Mid february was the initial date plan but March was offered up as well. Also, the range did not decrease enough for any smaller ships to engage so the presence of an LC or two did not matter in this instance. I gave miketr the suggested makeup for each side. The Mods were included as well.

To be clear, this was not the result I was expecting or even wanting either.   :'(  I just wanted an example of thin walled Cruiser with big guns fighting it out. Since many people enjoy them as a type.

Now to catch up with the reading.
"The black earth was sown with bones and watered with blood... for a harvest of sorrow on the land of Rus'. "
   -The Armament of Igor

Blooded

When mike stated the 'armor' was asked about he meant armor type(KC verses Imp KC) I stated that it should be KC for everybody.


I just noticed February 14th.... In America it is known as Valentines Day... So... The Valentines Day Massacre!  ;D LOL
"The black earth was sown with bones and watered with blood... for a harvest of sorrow on the land of Rus'. "
   -The Armament of Igor

Logi

QuoteYour Naval pages tell nothing other than the SS. I noticed you have misc set aside for FC but FC costs $. I could find nothing in your reports stating that FC for these craft had been paid for. Russian 1908 FC has been paid for specifically but I did discover that unless you spend the $ AGAIN they do not upgrade to the new model 1912 FC. I had not spent for the second level yet so I could not engage at even further ranges.  Cry
Really? I don't know why I have a file listing the overhaul states of various ships in 1918 as well as a large BP cost for the replacement FCs for some of these ships. Perhaps it's not counted if I don't list it separately and include it in the overhaul cost?



Quote20,000yds is NOT CLOSE RANGE in 1920. It's barely MEDIUM RANGE in 1940.

So RRC doctrine is to sit outside the range that they may hit the enemy and stick their tongue out at them? If closing to a range where you can achieve hits is a demotable offense, how are you to ever hit the enemy? Or are the ships just for looks?
Heavy ships are intended only as fleet-in-being, and to conduct bombardment missions. They are not meant to engage the enemy full scale, especially under unfavorable circumstances.

The RRC has no modern battleships, not even one ship with BB-level armor. It has no battle line, it can not force a battle line confrontation. Even at long range.

Thus endangering every asset just to hit the enemy is not tolerated. The mission of large RRC ships is primarily to survive, not to destroy. That's because when they were designed, there was conceivably nothing the MK had that could match it.

So you are right, they are just for looks. They are for pride.  They are not for winning a Pyrrhic victory.

QuoteFirst of all 30 degree elevation in this time period is unhistorical let alone anything higher; those are WW2 ranges.  16 degrees is more impressive for the time period.

Another thing I forgot to mention, RRC large ships are primarily designed as multipurpose bombardment ships. That is, their main purpose is to bombardment enemy shoreline. For this, a high elevation is desired, and results in the RRC turrets having high elevation. I have never sent the large ships out when bombardment was not their main mission.

Regardless, I have another problem with this scenario.

I can pass it off as a stroke of luck, but the Russians seem to be getting all the strokes of luck. How did that lone airship, as well as Russian Squadron manage to get by unnoticed until the Russians were practically in range of firing, in an area in which the RRC has hundreds of aircraft conducting recon and dozens of small ships engaged?

snip

Quotein an area in which the RRC has hundreds of aircraft conducting recon and dozens of small ships engaged?
Forgetting that I have a navy to?
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when solider lads march by
Sneak home and pray that you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
-Siegfried Sassoon

Logi

QuoteForgetting that I have a navy to?
So? Are you saying that every light ship will be in combat during that time and those planes, which were specifically assigned to do naval recon, suddenly disappeared?

snip

I also have an airforce. Any number of reasons that those aircraft and ships could have been in the wrong place or otherwise prevented from doing there duty. Mr Murphy may also have decided to come out and play.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when solider lads march by
Sneak home and pray that you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
-Siegfried Sassoon

miketr

If I agree to help with battles again.  SHOOT ME.

Michael

snip

Michael, your work is greatly appreciated.
You smug-faced crowds with kindling eye
Who cheer when solider lads march by
Sneak home and pray that you'll never know
The hell where youth and laughter go.
-Siegfried Sassoon

Logi

QuoteMr Murphy may also have decided to come out and play.
That is why I said it was a stroke of luck. But counted against the numerous "strokes of luck" the Russians had in this engagement, I would call it bias.

In this scenario, with the Russian spotted, the RRC ships should have turned back. If they went at full speed back to Shanghai, it would be ~250nm out of Shanghai before the Russians catches up (that is figuring coal-fired boilers can't run at sustained full speed for any decent period of time). Maybe thirty minutes before either side achieves a hit.

By then the distance from Shanghai is ~235nm and any squadron in the local vicinity has had hours to come up to support the ACs. In addition, the Destroyers should have turned and launched a torpedo charge against the Russians even in heavy fire, disturbing the Russian chase line and slowing them down in evasion maneuvers to buy even more time for the fleeing ACs.

In other words, had the pseudo-Admiral not engaged, there was a high chance he could have gotten off scot-free.

QuoteIf I agree to help with battles again.  SHOOT ME.
I won't shoot you, but I am dissatisfied. Feel free to ignore my ramblings, I am no longer in charge of the RRC, so I am nothing but a nobody. I appreciate the effort greatly, Miketr. I simply didn't think it was an accurate sim. My apologies if you were offended.