Heavy Secondary Guns

[Kaiser Kirk]

Just so people are aware what I am doing with FC when I sim battles is fire control of X generation doesn't effect range to shot it gives bonus to hit.  You might be able to fire out to 22,000 yards but without Director Fire Control you have horrible chances of hitting.  While 2nd Gen Fire control makes it possible to hit out that far with some chance of success.

Michael

I'm thinking the TH rate sans effective fire control is likely only 2-3%. Most of the firing at Jutland was from beyond the expected combat ranges, and that fits in. It also fits for that IJN expectation of long range fire in the 1920s. There should also be a rise at particularly close ranges.  

Now Seekrieg does it how you're saying - FC of X generation gives Y Bonus.  However I would think that before your Fire Control became eligible for that bonus, you have to fall within the range bands your Navalism Tech allows. Otherwise you're down to Top Spotting- for one thing that would be the position with the longest LOS.  

I would think that once you have effective fire control solutions, you still need to have an idea of where your shot is landing to fine tune it.  Hence what P3D is saying regarding spotting range.   I would think having enough guns to fire half-battery ladders to quickly find the range, and then the weight of fire necessary to severely slow/stop the DD(s) before it got under 8k-12k yards and torpedo evasion became much harders.

[miketr]

The German PDN's were capable of longer ranged fire than the DN's till the 16 degree prisms were put in.  Their FC setup was any better the guns were just able to fire out that far.

I made a slightly different table for FC but used Seekrieg as a base.  In the battle I am doing right now 1908 FC with the various factors in has about a 2% chance to hit in the 20K - 25K range.  The other side which lacks it has about a 0.5% chance but has been stupid lucky with hits; problem of small sample sizes I guess. 

The current FC rules are very open and this is because we have no official system its whatever who is doing the battle uses.  I am using a modified SeeKrieg IV.

Michael

[Delta Force]

Actualy, for our Nverse, 6" for secondary is a classis heavier choice.
Some countries use smaller guns - 140mm-127mm-120mm.

These secondaries are made essentially to repulse DDs & Cruisers.

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You could choose to have a big BB with 4T4x14"  & 2 fire control towers to engage 2 medium BBs or to "overgun" a classic 4T2x16" BB
We are in Nverse & we could imagine much different artillery installation.


Jef  ;)

If you make a ship with two fire control towers, does that mean that you have to have two separate conning towers and fire control systems?

[P3D]

My main problem with Seekrieg is that to-hit chances at shorter ranges are way underestimated, and there are no tables for over 10% chance.

I should have an excel table somewhere that generates to-hit tables based on hit chance and number of guns.

[Blooded]

Delta Force,

Well, the reason why I am looking at the 8 inch gun is because it has superior armor penetration compared to the 5 inch and deck penetration fairly close to the 14 inch gun. The bursting charge is also much more powerful on an 8 inch shell.

I get the feeling you are using data for the 1930's model 8" Guns, shells and fuses. Those are very good guns but also far ahead of our current capabilities. Current generations dont have the benefits of later metallurgy and intensive research aided by advanced mathematics and better physics modeling.

To be fair in SS modeling higher than normal power weapons you should add weight(bigger gun size, armor weight or even misc. weight) and even upkeep or building expenses. SS is designed for middle of the road BBs in general. Things outside the norm should compensate if you want a proper comparison. with luck, the knowledge and skill of our players can design a better SS in the future.

[Jefgte]

If you make a ship with two fire control towers, does that mean that you have to have two separate conning towers and fire control systems?

yes, 2 fire control tower to engage 2 " target

Each fire control tower could inform each turret about the target(s).

Orders are comming from the front blockaus (1st) or the aft blockaus (2nd)


Jef

[Kaiser Kirk]

My main problem with Seekrieg is that to-hit chances at shorter ranges are way underestimated, and there are no tables for over 10% chance.

I should have an excel table somewhere that generates to-hit tables based on hit chance and number of guns.

Seekrieg is also wildly generous with torpedeos.

Perhaps a simple rule on Fire Control implementation is needed.

At Fire Control Max Range, hit % is 6%
For each 2,000 yard band beyond, hit % is halved.
For each 2,000 yard band beneath, hit % is +1%

Weapons may only use fire control out to a limit of 1,100 yards per cm of bore.
So , 18,000 yard with FC would be 6%.  20,000 would be 3%, 22,000 would be 1.5%, 24,000 would be 0.75%
16,000 would be 7%, 14,000 would be 8%, 12,000 would be 9%, 10,000 would be 10%, 8,000 would be 12%, etc.

These are just sample numbers, I'm just tossing out the concept for concepts.

[miketr]

When I get some free time I will type up and put together what is a collection of hand notes and scribbles across several papers.

Right now I need to finish the battle I am doing so some time next week, odds are late next week.

Michael

[Guinness]

If you make a ship with two fire control towers, does that mean that you have to have two separate conning towers and fire control systems?

yes, 2 fire control tower to engage 2 " target

Each fire control tower could inform each turret about the target(s).

Orders are comming from the front blockaus (1st) or the aft blockaus (2nd)


Jef

No no no, one does not need an extra FC system on a ship.

Battleships will have all the necessary equipment to do split main battery and split secondary battery targeting. That's part of what you get for all that tonnage.

Cruisers will have all the necessary equipment also to do split main battery targeting as appropriate.

DDs would only have the capability to do director fire (be it gun fire or torpedo fire) on one target. That's the main drawback of a DD sized FC system. Single guns can always go to local control.

A real life case in point: HMS Delhi as rearmed in the US had essentially the same main armament as a Fletcher class destroyer. A Fletcher had one DCT, so could only engage one target at a time. Delhi had two complete DCTs, so could engage 2 target.

So if we're looking for a rule of thumb in 1922, how about this:

DD FC: 1 target out to typical DD gun/torpedo ranges, let's say somewhere around 10k yards
Cruiser FC: 2 targets out to typical cruiser gun ranges, let's say somewhere around 20k yards
BB/BC FC: 4 targets (up to two by main battery, two by secondary battery or up to 4 by secondary battery if main battery is not engaged) out to typical large caliber ranges, or at least out to whatever range the fall of spot can be spotted

EDIT: note that the controlling parameter for guns bigger than about 4 inches isn't how far the gun can shoot, but how far one can spot the fall of shot.

[Jefgte]

...Cruiser FC: 2 targets out to typical cruiser gun ranges, let's say somewhere around 20k yards
BB/BC FC: 4 targets (up to two by main battery, two by secondary battery or up to 4 by secondary battery if main battery is not engaged) out to typical large caliber ranges, or at least out to whatever range the fall of spot can be spotted

...

Yes, yes, yes  :D  :D  :D

When I wrote "2 fire control towers to engage 2 targets"
I think about the US BBs with 2 cage masts.
They have high cage masts,
I have too, high circular masts for the top rangefinders.


Jef