Battleships

[Kaiser Kirk]

BC is the same as Bismarck's. I think guns should fit, but I doubt it will be nearly as stable of a gun boat as the Colorado or the Bismarck. I also doubt it will have as good a TDS system as the Standards. But theoretically it should fit.

The two triples means the guns should be pushed much closer towards the center and I doubt there isn't enough beam there for both the gun and turret. Now if you wanted another triple on such a beam, I would have my doubts.

I don't agree that using a 36m beam ship with twin 15" is a good BC analogy for a 30m beam with triple 16.5".
While you may indeed be correct in the long run,  it's not a good example.

[Logi]

I don't agree that using a 36m beam ship with twin 15" is a good BC analogy for a 30m beam with triple 16.5".
While you may indeed be correct in the long run,  it's not a good example.

I was not trying to compare the Bismark beam and weaponry to the design. I was contesting a statement that you made. The Bismarck is a battleship and had 0.550 BC, which defies your statement that it is the BC of a cruiser.

and a BC more suitable for a cruiser than a battleship.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Go ahead and contest
I said it was more suitable for a cruiser than a battleship.... not that a battleship couldn't have it.
So the example still isn't good.

I think the statement is true for the majority of dreadnaught style battleships vs. light/heavy cruisers.

[Logi]

Btw, last I heard you can't go below L:B ratio of 6 without incurring moderator damage.

Has this changed?

[Delta Force]

So, I've had some issues with fitting more than about six 16.5 inch guns on a ship. I do like this design as it is very well balanced. I went back to the old 15 inch guns, and the ship is essentially a fast battleship. I've also gone away from the flush deck design for this concept, so it is now more seaworthy and no longer has a wet deck. It has a zone of immunity of 18,000 to 28,000 yards against the 15 inch gun.

15 Inch Battleship, CSA Battleship laid down 1920

Displacement:
   35,000 t light; 36,904 t standard; 38,590 t normal; 39,940 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 104.99 ft (Bulges 118.11 ft) x 28.87 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 220.00 m x 32.00 m (Bulges 36.00 m)  x 8.80 m

Armament:
      8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (8x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 16,808 lbs / 7,624 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   410.00 ft / 124.97 m   16.50 ft / 5.03 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 87 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      2.00" / 51 mm   410.00 ft / 124.97 m   30.00 ft / 9.14 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      16.0" / 406 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 4.50" / 114 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 109,850 shp / 81,948 Kw = 27.62 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,036 tons

Complement:
   1,376 - 1,789

Cost:
   £7.732 million / $30.926 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,796 tons, 4.7 %
   Armour: 13,474 tons, 34.9 %
      - Belts: 4,223 tons, 10.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 910 tons, 2.4 %
      - Armament: 3,649 tons, 9.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,398 tons, 11.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 295 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 3,841 tons, 10.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,489 tons, 40.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,591 tons, 9.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     51,102 lbs / 23,180 Kg = 30.3 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 9.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 20.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.549
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.51 ft / 9.30 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   20.67 ft / 6.30 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.67 ft / 6.30 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.67 ft / 6.30 m
      - Stern:      20.67 ft / 6.30 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.46 ft / 6.54 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 151.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 52,823 Square feet or 4,907 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1,020 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.26
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Logi]

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06

Problem.

It has a zone of immunity of 18,000 to 28,000 yards against the 15 inch gun.

Using what program?

[Sachmle]

I'd be willing to sacrifice some speed to get a longer belt (87% coverage is short for an AoN scheme).

[Delta Force]

Having trouble with increasing stability. Any way to up it without removing armament?

[Sachmle]

Having trouble with increasing stability. Any way to up it without removing armament?

Other than more beam, you can mess with the freeboard. Also, 70% for gunfire isn't a 'requirement', of course neither is 1.10 for stability. They're recommendations. The 1.10 is more important than the 70%. Remember, 50% is AVERAGE, i.e. Not bad. 70% is extremely well really. I think we all strive for it too much, considering.

[Logi]

Drop the superfiring into Russian-style layout. That will improve stability.

[Jefgte]

Drop the superfiring into Russian-style layout. That will improve stability.

...With the aft turret.
(A-X-Y & just B superfiring)


Jef

[mentat]

  Looking good, but:

Range seems on the light side - increased bunkerage will help with stability

- but as mentioned 60% steadiness is good - 70% not totally necessary ....

  Barbette armour seems excessive - very difficult to manufacture 16"  in such size - and the curve helps on protection - 13/14" would do

You have a Ski-jump bow ...

[Delta Force]

New and improved design for the fast battleship. I am actually surprised how it is able to have such strong armor and high speed at the same time. I suppose the ship is in the tradition of an Imperial German Navy battlecruiser, seeing as it would be quite proficient in fighting with the main line.

15 Inch Battleshipv2, CSA Battleship laid down 1920

Displacement:
   35,000 t light; 36,916 t standard; 39,187 t normal; 41,003 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 104.99 ft (Bulges 118.11 ft) x 28.87 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 220.00 m x 32.00 m (Bulges 36.00 m)  x 8.80 m

Armament:
      8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (8x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 16,808 lbs / 7,624 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   16.50 ft / 5.03 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      2.00" / 51 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   30.00 ft / 9.14 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.26" / 83 mm, Conning tower: 16.00" / 406 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 115,425 shp / 86,107 Kw = 27.87 kts
   Range 11,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,087 tons

Complement:
   1,392 - 1,810

Cost:
   £7.796 million / $31.185 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,796 tons, 4.6 %
   Armour: 13,145 tons, 33.5 %
      - Belts: 5,034 tons, 12.8 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,043 tons, 2.7 %
      - Armament: 3,459 tons, 8.8 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,211 tons, 8.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 398 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 4,036 tons, 10.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 15,623 tons, 39.9 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,187 tons, 10.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     52,285 lbs / 23,716 Kg = 31.0 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 9.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07
   Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 20.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.557
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 66
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.51 ft / 9.30 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Stern:      21.33 ft / 6.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.06 ft / 6.72 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 53,245 Square feet or 4,947 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 208 lbs/sq ft or 1,017 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.30
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

Side armor sloped 20 degrees, giving a relative thickness of 15.96 inches.

Deck armor only covers the 470 foot long armored box. Deck armor is 5 inches in the covered area.

Misc Weight (400 tons):
250 tons fire control system
25 tons radar
25 tons long range wireless
25 tons night fighting gear
25 tons crane and catapult for floatplane
10 tons 2x floatplanes
40 tons reserve

[Logi]

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07

Problematic

Deck armor only covers the 470 foot long armored box. Deck armor is 5 inches in the covered area.

Deck armor is in excess. There is no precedent.

Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   16.50 ft / 5.03 m

Side armor sloped 20 degrees, giving a relative thickness of 15.96 inches.

Belt armor is in excess. Not only that, but there's nobody would can roll decent quality plates of that thickness. Also, the height of the belt means it lands on an odd number (15 ft).

721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 104.99 ft (Bulges 118.11 ft) x 28.87 ft (normal load)
  - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
     2.00" / 51 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   30.00 ft / 9.14 m

I would be worried about torpedo hits on the seams of the TDS, it should be 4~5 ft higher than the draught.

Also I'm not sure everything would fit (length wise). Strange coming from me, but floatplane contraptions do take up a lot of length. Probably should fit, but something to notice.

[Sachmle]

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.07

Problematic

He has steadiness he can trade in.

Deck armor only covers the 470 foot long armored box. Deck armor is 5 inches in the covered area.

Deck armor is in excess. There is no precedent.

Really? No precedent?

Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   16.50 ft / 5.03 m

Side armor sloped 20 degrees, giving a relative thickness of 15.96 inches.

Belt armor is in excess. Not only that, but there's nobody would can roll decent quality plates of that thickness.

While I think 13.5" is thick enough for this situation, there is precedent again

The Maori have rolled consistent belt plates as thick as 15", though even I don't know what their rejection percentages were like, but I don't think anyone else has gone in for that. The CSA and the Maori have pretty friendly relations, so depending on my own build schedule, you should be able to order anything up to 40cm (15.7") belt plates from Maori armor mills.

Also, the height of the belt means it lands on an odd number (15 ft).

Maybe he has 7.5' decks?

721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 104.99 ft (Bulges 118.11 ft) x 28.87 ft (normal load)
  - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
     2.00" / 51 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   30.00 ft / 9.14 m

I would be worried about torpedo hits on the seams of the TDS, it should be 4~5 ft higher than the draught.

Also I'm not sure everything would fit (length wise). Strange coming from me, but floatplane contraptions do take up a lot of length. Probably should fit, but something to notice.

Usually the TDS mated with the bottom of the MB. AFAIK, only the Germans carried up to main deck level as a splinter shield behind the belt. I'd say it could actually be shorter.