Battleships

[Delta Force]

Is the draught on the ship too much? I know that for most real life battleships it isn't that bad, but the CSA's ships thus far have had draughts of around 8.8 meters or so. This would be a pretty large jump. Also, is 21 knots too slow for a battleship now? Most dreadnoughts designed in the late 1910s and early 1920s had speeds of at least 23 knots, if not 25.

[Valles]

IIRC, 21 or so is the 'standard' established fleet speed for the CSA - one or two past that would be 'insurance' to assure that it'd be able to maintain fleet speed. I dunno 'bout the draft either way; Maori hulls are designed to max out at 10m

[Delta Force]

Five quadruple turrets on this one. Not sure how practical it is though. This ship could easily take on two or three battleships at a time, and it doesn't have any recoil problems.

Sam Houston, CSA Battleship laid down 1920

Displacement:
   40,400 t light; 43,446 t standard; 44,672 t normal; 45,652 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 118.11 ft x 33.30 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 220.00 m x 36.00 m  x 10.15 m

Armament:
      20 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (5x4 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      20 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (10x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      5 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 41,010 lbs / 18,602 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 94

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   481.00 ft / 146.61 m   16.50 ft / 5.03 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   481.00 ft / 146.61 m   24.75 ft / 7.54 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   6.00" / 152 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 12.00" / 305 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 42,143 shp / 31,438 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,206 tons

Complement:
   1,536 - 1,997

Cost:
   £12.474 million / $49.897 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 4,354 tons, 9.7 %
   Armour: 13,159 tons, 29.5 %
      - Belts: 4,148 tons, 9.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 881 tons, 2.0 %
      - Armament: 4,500 tons, 10.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,304 tons, 7.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 325 tons, 0.7 %
   Machinery: 1,474 tons, 3.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 21,013 tons, 47.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,272 tons, 9.6 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 0.9 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     44,725 lbs / 20,287 Kg = 26.5 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 7.0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 7.2 ft / 2.2 m
   Roll period: 18.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.81
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.551
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.11 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Mid (50 %):      17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Stern:      17.22 ft / 5.25 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.22 ft / 5.25 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 127.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 59,537 Square feet or 5,531 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 273 lbs/sq ft or 1,334 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.31
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Logi]

The problem is armor, very thin for it's size. And the counter point is to have smaller and more ships carrying large caliber weaponry. Between re-aiming and the poor armor, there is a higher chance of sinking this one.

Ofc, that is only my speculation.

Also:

Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06

Problem.

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
     2.00" / 51 mm   481.00 ft / 146.61 m   24.75 ft / 7.54 m

Doesn't cover all of depth, vulnerable to shallow torpedo hits.

Range 5,000nm at 12.00 kts

Problem, too short legged. Supplying at sea is a period of vulnerability. This ship will have to do so much more often than other ships.

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
  721.78 ft /

I think NEDS.

[Borys]

Ahoj!
There have been exchanges of gun technology between the CSA and the Habsburgs in the recent past.
The Fluttering White Dove of International Politics will soon - in 2/1920 - conclude the development of its 16,5"/40/2500 lbs weapon. If the CSA was interested - blueprints could be available  (I, as caretaker, would be happy to provide them, but I do not know who will be leading the Eternal Peace Struggle in 1921 N-verse time).
Borys

[Delta Force]

That is a very interesting offer. Skoda guns and American armor will make a very good combination.

On another note, is turboelectric drive good for a battleship to have? It helps out with subdivision, but I have read conflicting reports on it either being a terrible idea for making it easy to knock out propulsion and electricity (having the added effect of making main guns useless due to having no power for the electric motors), to being a great idea for allowing increased fuel efficiency, better subdivision, improved reliability (by allowing power to be rerouted through the ship in the event of damage, preventing boiler or shaft damage from knocking out screws), and improved maneuverability citing a case of a battleship that lost helm control being able to dodge a torpedo by changing power to the electric motors.

[Valles]

My understanding is that the reputed 'ease' of knocking out turbo-electric plants is based on a single case of an American BB eating a torpedo in exactly the wrong place - the kind of golden BB whose equivalent would have been at least as bad for a gear-driven ship.

But then, as you might guess looking at my designs, I'm a believer in electric drive. ^_^

[Sachmle]

I don't know if there was a BB as well, but I'm pretty sure either Sara or Lexi lost TE drive due to vibrations from a near miss bomb at one point.

[P3D]

My understanding is that the reputed 'ease' of knocking out turbo-electric plants is based on a single case of an American BB eating a torpedo in exactly the wrong place - the kind of golden BB whose equivalent would have been at least as bad for a gear-driven ship.

But then, as you might guess looking at my designs, I'm a believer in electric drive. ^_^

Electric drive is almost a no-brainer in N3verse, as it comes with all the benefits, and without the IRL weight penalties.

[Delta Force]

So, here is the Bahamas class light battleship, armed with the 16.5 inch Skoda gun. Oddly enough, trying to make larger ships with the 16.5 inch has proven very difficult to do, so I don't have a heavy counterpart for it right now.

Bahamas, CSA Light Battleship laid down 1920

Displacement:
   22,054 t light; 23,671 t standard; 24,906 t normal; 25,894 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.74 ft / 557.74 ft x 98.43 ft x 28.87 ft (normal load)
   170.00 m / 170.00 m x 30.00 m  x 8.80 m

Armament:
      6 - 16.50" / 419 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,500.00lbs / 1,133.98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (6x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      2 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15,604 lbs / 7,078 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 128

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   325.00 ft / 99.06 m   16.50 ft / 5.03 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   325.00 ft / 99.06 m   24.75 ft / 7.54 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      16.0" / 406 mm
   2nd:   3.00" / 76 mm   2.00" / 51 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.50" / 89 mm, Conning tower: 14.00" / 356 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 31,470 shp / 23,477 Kw = 21.00 kts
   Range 8,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,223 tons

Complement:
   990 - 1,288

Cost:
   £5.694 million / $22.775 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,765 tons, 7.1 %
   Armour: 8,758 tons, 35.2 %
      - Belts: 3,413 tons, 13.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 595 tons, 2.4 %
      - Armament: 2,012 tons, 8.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,481 tons, 10.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 257 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 1,100 tons, 4.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,030 tons, 40.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,852 tons, 11.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 1.6 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     30,427 lbs / 13,802 Kg = 13.5 x 16.5 " / 419 mm shells or 5.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 16.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.54
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.24

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 5.67 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.62 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Stern:      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Average freeboard:   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.1 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 108.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 38,311 Square feet or 3,559 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 200 lbs/sq ft or 976 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.65
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Borys]

Ahoj!
1 - The lay down date has to be 1921 - I still haven't finished designing the gun yet :)
2 - you are stuck with twins until 2/1922 - and you have to design the triples yourself; the KKK does not do triples. The twins are ready, though.
3 - my over-armoured 4x2x42cm ship is close to 37,5K light ...
Borys

[Kaiser Kirk]

I'm not to keen on the triple 16.5" combined with a beam the same as the USS Colorado which had twin 16", and a BC more suitable for a cruiser than a battleship. While the USN ships with triple 16" were 108ft, Rodney was 106 ft. Both had much beefier BCs.  Fitting a larger gun while reducing both... well considering you'll have just two turrets, and so closer to the midpoint of the ship with larger inherent beam I can see some arguments for not increasing both, but I'd prefer either more beam +8-10ft  or a higher Block coefficient >0.62.

[TexanCowboy]

I have VERY serious doubts about the turrets fitting into the ship, esp. with the torpedo bulkhead. I'd add another 10 feet to beam, add another 35 feet to the TB and the belt, and switch to a 3x2 arrangement, A(X)Y.

[Logi]

Length to Beam Ratio: 5.67 : 1

Problem.

- Torpedo Bulkhead:
     2.00" / 51 mm   325.00 ft / 99.06 m   24.75 ft / 7.54 m

Exposed hull underwater. Increase depth to ~5ft + draft.

Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

Short belt length. I dislike it, but that's my quirk.

BC is the same as Bismarck's. I think guns should fit, but I doubt it will be nearly as stable of a gun boat as the Colorado or the Bismarck. I also doubt it will have as good a TDS system as the Standards. But theoretically it should fit.

The two triples means the guns should be pushed much closer towards the center and I doubt there isn't enough beam there for both the gun and turret. Now if you wanted another triple on such a beam, I would have my doubts.

I'm not to keen on the triple 16.5" combined with a beam the same as the USS Colorado which had twin 16", and a BC more suitable for a cruiser than a battleship.

I have VERY serious doubts about the turrets fitting into the ship, esp. with the torpedo bulkhead. I'd add another 10 feet to beam, add another 35 feet to the TB and the belt, and switch to a 3x2 arrangement, A(X)Y.

[Delta Force]

Now that I think about it, is the Bahamas concept too much like a pre-dreadnought with a few more super-super-dreadnought guns?