Discussion of the Maori and New Swiss War...

[Darman]

BTW, I think this is the first war that the Swiss aren't responsible for starting in any way that they're involved in....well, besides the Maori "reasons".

Obviously I haven't been around quite as long as Tex but I think I agree, this may be a first. 

[Kaiser Kirk]

BTW, I think this is the first war that the Swiss aren't responsible for starting in any way that they're involved in....well, besides the Maori "reasons".

Now what side does Borys jump in on?

Hey if they weren't there, the Maori wouldn't DoW them, obviously the NS's fault.

[snip]

wow...what a way to start the fireworks

[Valles]

No, no, I'll be fair and admit it:

This time, it was not the Swiss's fault.

Given the widespread and lasting legacy of goodwill, security, and brotherly love that they've left everywhere they go for years now, though, I don't expect that to matter a whole lot.

Something I've already received PMs about, and should explain:

The timing of the operation relative to the Declaration of War is not an attempt at a Pearl Harbor scenario - at least not in full. The entire Maori diplomatic corps - every ambassador and charge de affairs worldwide - will've been primed with their own relevant statements and documents regarding this ahead of time, to be revealed to the world at 6am, Swiss Time (whatever that works out to be where they are) or soonest business hours after that on the 9th. As I've just posted, the military side of things is scheduled to begin at 7am on the 9th - first light after arrival in the very early morning.

It would've been theoretically possible for the Swiss government not to've known about the declaration until after the fighting started, but only if they deliberately kept the resident charge de affairs cooling his heels for a full hour. Those ambassadors in other nations who get called on to explain just what's going on will know this.

It is a fine distinction, and those nations that are not amused by it are well within their rights - but I think it's a significant one that needs to be borne in mind.

[ctwaterman]

Decleration of War on January 8th in the Morning.

First shots fired officially.... will be New Swiss Airstrike on the Maori Fleet still "Technically" in International waters... Say 8 NM off Phoenix [Still Polishing the write up]

So the DOW is a full day Prior to combat operations begining. 
I also still have to see how the New Swiss Subs come out of this....

Charles

[Desertfox]

8nm of Phoenix??? Not earlier? NS considered all the waters enclosed by the islands to be "territorial seas". What really sucks is that now everyone in Phoenix has a front row seat on a massive airstrike... Course if it works, no one will dare attack NS.

As for music, maybe I could blare Justin Beiber songs at the invaders, might be enough to make them commit suicide.  ;D That said, the massive Tesla coils I installed should be playing Mission Impossible as we speak...

[TexanCowboy]

No, this would make them commit suicide: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0

Don't listen unless you're very, very brave...

[snip]

BAD TEX! (Thwaps with newspaper and sends the Dragon Army to take over GC)

[TexanCowboy]

I atone!

[ctwaterman]

I atone!

The Gran Columbian Atlantic fleet while conducting a training exercise appears to have blundered into a freak Atlantic Hurricane and washed up on a Sand Bar.... :(

[Blooded]

Wow... beyond ambitious.

#1: Merchants ships were smaller in this time period compared to WW2. Say 2,500 to 5,000 ton. Not a comfortable ride in the Pacific.
#2: Merchants were slower as well. Say 8knt average(?). Maybe 5knts... especially if you plan on maintaining any semblance of formation. Also coal burners but that seems to have been covered(smudge and whatnot). It would be difficult to store that much coal in the assembly area.
#3:  

Many Ships, I repeat Thousands of Ships Heading for Home Islands

Thousands of ships? How big is the Maori merchant fleet? Remember that Valles has stated that NO(maybe it was little?) trade occurs during wartime for the Maori(they are self sufficient?). Anyone that trades alot cannot be self sufficient, so the fleet cant be too big. Also 1000 ship fleets did not exist until mid/late WW2.
It is not listed here but I would guess 200,000 to 500,000 max(100 ships @5,000ton each)
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=5258.msg65675#msg65675
#4: 100x5,000 ton ship with say 500 men=50,000 men. One Corps wont cut it, even with surprise. Troop loading has already been discussed before I believe. I can get into it further with examples if needed.
#5:

Many Ships, I repeat Thousands of Ships Heading for Home Islands

I will let those better at math figure out how much real estate 1000 ships would take up(but I would put in a guess at 1000 square miles-try defending that). One raider could cause crazy amounts of damge before the other side of the fleet even knows about it.
#5: 3,000(?) mile journey@ 8knts =15.6 days. Long time if ships are crowded. Several days prep, several days waiting , several days loading(in the soot covered loading area breathing in a virtual coal mine... black lung anyone?). Several days unloading if 'over the beach'. There will not be enough steam/motor launches, it will be rowboats and towed barges(what doesnt sink). 1905 amphibious tech BTW.
#6: Maori signals tech is 'Baseline' (IE before 1900). Good luck getting this out to all embassies and whatnot before hand without leaks. Granted most leak finders would probably not inform the Swiss.  ;D  But they may have the time too take advantage of it themselves.
#7: As above in regards to radio discipline. This could also apply to an overall lack of security conscious people(trusting?) Everyone in Maoria probably knows whats up.
#8 All this with perfect timing regarding the DOW. Impossible. did anyone mess up the timezones? decoding? sick /drunk/ bribed ambassador(they would have to know over a week ahead of time)?

I hope these types of things have been covered. My opinion is it is reaching ASB territory.

[ctwaterman]

I actually considered this to be a Foxy type mission round up your entire navy and entire merchant marine and send it off some where else to be attritted.

The Problems is ships are measure in GRT so yes I was most likely using a bit of exageration when I said thousands of ships....

However the Maori have 600,000 tons of shipping when I last checked.

So our rules allow them to move long distance 1 man per 4 Tons give or take.  As an example foxy moved 1 Division with 100,000 tons of shipping to New Zion.

#2: Merchants were slower as well. Say 8knt average(?). Maybe 5knts... especially if you plan on maintaining any semblance of formation. Also coal burners but that seems to have been covered(smudge and whatnot). It would be difficult to store that much coal in the assembly area.

Yes I figured there speed was roughly 7 to 8 knots for the 3900 or some miles of there voyage.   But the ships that spotted them still had to reach a port with a telegraph at the same speed of 7 to 8 knots.

[Blooded]

Well... to be quite honest foxy's missions are just as ASB.  ;)

ASB=Alien Space Bats, usual terminology for 'impossible' in alternate history fiction.

A decent representative for OTL merchants in capability(not dimensions-I screwed those up- did not know better at the time).
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4407.msg50532#msg50532
So 5000GRT=500 men over a distance(as roughly guessed before). It would be impossible to gather EVERY vessel in the merchant fleet(some would not be worthy of the trip as well). So we are still looking at 50000 tired sick men if generous(75% effectives?). Some of these guys should be naval personnel to repair the ships that get damaged(using foreign equipment) as no repair/depot ships have been built.

BTW, Real world example for large invasion. It took almost 450,000 tons for the Japanese to invade the Philipines(traveling from a few hundred-from Taiwan- to maybe 1000 miles-from Japan)around a Corps worth of men. My info is not readily available but I can get it by tomorrow.

I am not saying it is impossible to invade the Swiss homelands in principle. But I am saying the Maori could not do it in this timeframe with this tech, preparation, and lack of surprise(well maybe not the Swiss tech is not so hot according to his page)at least not successfully. It will be over a month and a half before they can expect reinforcements(assuming they can get home). Should be a bloody drawn out affair leaving the Swiss with the field but in very poor shape(picture the Phillipine Moro insurrection writ large-ouch!).

It would take all of the Maori offensive power to make this hit. I hope the DKB, NUS, CSA, Rohan, GC and Orange are busy doing other things and dont kick the Maori homeland while down as they have no navy for over month and a half.

[ctwaterman]

I cant speak to whom the DKB, Iberia, Gran Columbia, NUS, and CSA will be kicking they could go anyway they want after all the New Swiss would be very occupied at home.

I Agree ASB is a proper term and I tired to be fair if someone else could do it I wouldnt say no.   But from a player perspective I would have said no to Foxy foray into the rift as well.  :'(  I mean how many of his ships ran out of Gas before the reached port because they had to fight a battle.  :o

So I didnt shut it down now I have to figure out how to fight it out trying to be fair to both sides.

Note People please Update your Pages to show where your Army Units are located and at what readiness levels.    This is a perpetual complaint.  The same is needed for your Navys as Active units are not as good as Wartime readiness.   Pearl Harbor happened for a reason.... Lazy days in the sun.

I think I saw a report where the Japanese used something like 28 Ships to move it was pretty much a Corp to Invade Malaya so 28 Ships at roughly 5000 GRT each is
140k GRT but then again the Japanese had lots of pack animals a few armored vehicles and just a bit over 50K men.  And the Japanese skimped on supplies....

[miketr]

It is a fine distinction, and those nations that are not amused by it are well within their rights - but I think it's a significant one that needs to be borne in mind.

OOC you are stepping on a plot of my own so there are other factors are work here Valles.

IC Iberia believes that the conduct of the Maori is outside of the bounds of all civilized conduct and is no different that a pirates coastal raid just on a vastly larger scale.