Discussions: Ukrainian-Bavarian War

[TexanCowboy]

As per January the 5 the Baltic Approaches will be mined!!!
Any shipping to and from The Baltic will by then only gain access to the Baltic Sea under Esc naval escort.
Any Ukrainian shipping will not repeat not gain any access to the Baltic,mercantile traffic will be subjected to a Prize commission and any naval shipping will be repealed with any necessary forces!!!

Yo. Denmark, according to N-verse history, was still an independent nation in 1857, when the Copenhagen Convention was signed, and so the ESC would be obligated by treaty to respect the clause of this treaty that declared the Great Belt an international waterway, partially, and so not subjected to mining unless formal war is declared....now, beats me if that was signed in N-verse or not, but it might set a very bad precedent for areas such as the Sulu Sea, DEI, Caribbean, etc.

IC: Gran Columbian diplomats take careful notes on the matter, seeing as the equivelent could be used in the eastern Caribbean with the Lesser Antilles, with no war declared...

[ledeper]

The Esc adhere thus:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=245.0
And followed by this:
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=3184.0
and after the demise of the individual independent states in Scandinavia
all former treaties and agreements was declared void.(At least to my understanding,may the MODS will/can correct me?)

[ctwaterman]

Its diplomacy and yes it may or may not set presidence. 

1.  The Republic of Orange has mined the Entrance to the Persian Gulf in cooperation with the state of Persia.   Neither Persia nor the Republic of Orange at that time being in a state of war with anyone.  [Very Few Objections]

2.  The Dutch have mined and maintain a remote detonated mine field in the straits of Hormuz.

3.  New Zion in both wars layed massive mine fields in International waters.

4.  I am sure there are other examples of Presidence people can quote.

So if you wish to Object to the ESC laying a minefield inside what can be argued is there territorial waters while at Peace by all means have your Diplomats Fire a note across their bows.  But first read the laws of territorial Sea's in the treaty sections and heck make sure the ESC signed the treaty.

[Desertfox]

The ****** Germans laid a ***** minefield in the Torres Strait and they where not at war with NS...

[ctwaterman]

That could very well be True... the **** Germans are sneaky.
But then of course alot of people believe that the New Swiss laid floating minefields in the Mediteranian of Nice, and in the Straits of Gibraltar.   ::)

[Desertfox]

But at least the Swiss denied it. The Germans laid the mines, didn't bother telling the Swiss about them (despite being in Swiss territorial waters) and then after the fact told the whole world... *grumble*

[ledeper]

OOC:
It`s not that I'm closing up The Baltic,I "just",want to make sure that, nothing that passes, will in any way benefit the Ukrainians and it apparently gradually will show some effect.
I believe that with the announcement of mobilizing of some military districts and a naval-blockade against Ukraine is the farthest I can go to support Bavaria ,without go to outright war ,which is clearly not the wish of Bavaria ,since their reluctance to invoke the Leipzig treaty.(I have my suspicions why ;D ;D).

[TexanCowboy]

No, the general premise, ledeper, is that when nations conglamerate, or merge, or whatever, they respect the treaties signed by each individual state beforehand unless they directly conflict with each other. When North and South Yeman merged, that occured, etc., etc. And only Russia recognizes that they are territorial waters, not nessisarily the rest of the world.

ct, the difference with New Zion was that they were already at war. If the ESC announced this after declaring war, I would have no qualms, but without war, it's sorta preemptively...laying stake, and setting a fairly bad precedent. As for the first one....yeap, that does seem odd. And with 2, the Dutch were at war, right?

[ctwaterman]

Grumble Im going to have to figure out how to move this discussion to discussion board and out of Kaiser Kirks new posts.... *I have done it once before but cant remember how I did it*  :o

Anyway The Dutch Minefield exists right now in time of peace to the best of my Knowledge every ship transiting the Straits of Hormuz is sailing over several lines of command detonated mines.  Which are perodicaly maintained.

New Zion was at war the 2nd time and the 1st time started laying them before war was declared.   As a point of fact I figure it will take Italia about 2 years to completely clear the Mine Fields laid durring the 2nd Rift War.  It will also cost dozens of lives and at least a few mine clearing vessels.   Laying a minefield is easy clearing it takes time and effort and money.

Charles

[ctwaterman]

OOC:
It`s not that I'm closing up The Baltic,I "just",want to make sure that, nothing that passes, will in any way benefit the Ukrainians and it apparently gradually will show some effect.
I believe that with the announcement of mobilizing of some military districts and a naval-blockade against Ukraine is the farthest I can go to support Bavaria ,without go to outright war ,which is clearly not the wish of Bavaria ,since their reluctance to invoke the Leipzig treaty.(I have my suspicions why ;D ;D).

Which many people would agree is your legitimate right as a soverign nation.  There are some interpretations on the Treaty many people signed that covered international waterways and soverign seas.   Currently we have people claiming 3 mile, 6 mile, some were pushing for 12 mile.  And in One Case "Republic of Orange" *Cough* who claimed a 100 or 200 nm limit.   Since we have no agreement on things such as what is the limit of territory under a nations LEGAL jurisdiction then we can have nice arguements about what nations legally can and cant do.

And then we get the Dimplomats, and Interational Lawyers *EVIL* involved if nations really really dont like what you did they can contimplate diplomatic or financial sanctions. [Example: Orange and New Swiss shipping barred from using Italia ports or territorial waters.]  or heaven help us Military action.

Of course that being said who wants to try to take on the ESC in the Baltic  :o ;) ::) :P  I believe you are covered under the *insert rasberry* I can do it because Im big and its in my back yard.  But you might expect the occasional harsh diplomatic note to be fired in your direction.  Beware the paper cuts some nasty diplomats rub lemon juice and salt into the edges of there diplomatic notes to make such cuts even more painful. :'(

[miketr]

Might makes right, be right.

[P3D]

...
1.  The Republic of Orange has mined the Entrance to the Persian Gulf in cooperation with the state of Persia.   Neither Persia nor the Republic of Orange at that time being in a state of war with anyone.  [Very Few Objections]
...

Not very few, about every player active on the forum (save one or two) at that time objected.

[Guinness]

Grumble Im going to have to figure out how to move this discussion to discussion board and out of Kaiser Kirks new posts.... *I have done it once before but cant remember how I did it*  :o

FIFY

[Sachmle]

The ****** Germans laid a ***** minefield in the Torres Strait and they where not at war with NS...

Yes we did, we dropped 20 moored contact mines off a CL to make sure no Dutch followed us back through. Then we cleared them as soon as the war was over. If we never mentioned them, you'd never even knew they were there.

[miketr]

Kaiser Kirk what are the design details of the sturmpanzer?  Looks like a landship of the A7V / St Chamond type.

What tanks did you doctor to make the picture?

Michael