Discussions: Ukrainian-Bavarian War

[Kaiser Kirk]

Actually a bit hard to answer.

The picture dates from November 2008..hmm didn't think I've been here that long, perhaps it's stamped wrong.... so the details are a bit vague.

I'm pretty sure I used several different source tanks. Looking through my 'tanks' folder, I'd say I used
a Czech LT35 turret, shrunk down as the MG cupola
A Fiat L6/40 for tracks, main gun, and rear. Cut & pasted the tracks several times to extend them.
I know I stitched the hull together from another tank, it may be the abortive Hungarian S-III.
Not sure where the 'prow' came from, I think I lopped off the end of a tank, reversed it's direction and put it on.
Don't recall where the MG casements came from along the sides.

As for stats- I think I did try to Tanksharp it once, don't think I finished it. Leastways I don't see it.

Conceptually, it's supposed to be a 'beginning' tank.
We haven't had massive trenchwarfare, so I tried to start from the concept of putting an armored box on a tractor chassis.
I wound up thinking of a tracked CSS Virginia as a basic concept.

Defensively, it would turn broadside, so it's three casement side MGs can fire. Basically a mobile pill box.  Drive to where the breech is occurring, park, defend.
Offensively, it would need a bow gun to take down strongpoints. As it passes through the lines, the casement MGs can hose down the defenders.
For vision, I thought a little pilot house on top would work nicely, and decided while the CO is up there, let's overwork him with an MG. Thats supposed to take
the place of a Coax MG, while leaving room for the gun crew and driver. The Cupola is offset over the driver so the CO can give directions (kick him in the shoulder)

With a long hull, and particularly when expecting to fight broadside, having some slope to the armor helps. so the armored sides slope back.
I was guessing it would run in the 40 ton range.

I *wanted* something new and different, once I was done I had something that was indeed similar to the AV7 and St. Charmond.

[Blooded]

Hello,

I had not expected any naval action for the Ukrainian-Bavarian War. So a few points...

The Army had been about half mobilized in 2H1919 but the navy was not. The Volodymir BBs were in Reserve as well as the older type G and type O DDs(relegated to escort functions). 2 of the Type A Monitors(in the Baltic) were in Reserve as well. Everything else was Active. Would the reserves tech apply for naval units? IE. it would be 5 weeks for the reserve units to fully mobilize.

Leaving the Black Sea seems very dangerous as well. The target looks to be 1600 nm away. Past 2 non-friendly neutrals(Ottomans-was the primary enemy until 1919 and Italy-has very good relations with Bavaria), with no port available to restock, unless the Hapsburgs are backing them up(due to previous nobility connections with Ukraine). Without Hapsburg basing, sending the entire Black Sea Navy(besides defensive base forces) on a long range blockade mission with no manuevering room seems a bit crazy.

If they still plan on going, it would still take a while to plan(I cant imagine any preplanned warplans that would include the navy going beyond the Black sea) and prepare.

Also, While I have not been able to post Russian news yet, it would be apparant to the Ukrainians that Russia no longer supports Ukrainian actions. So I wont be backing him up in these wacky endevours.  ;)  ;)

[Kaiser Kirk]

I mean- put it this way- would you want to be the Admiral to tell high command that your 4 battleships are worthless against a foe because that foe's navy was too small to pose a threat? To explain that while you could steam to his shores and conduct operations, it is inconvenient to do so? That this is a war that you would like to have your navy sit out?


Presumably the Ukrainians have some sort of warplan for dealing with wars with each of their neighbors. Even if not fronting on the Black Sea.
Presumably the Ukrainian navy is in charge of the naval aspects for one against Bavaria, which would rather require leaving the Black Sea.
Given that there is next to no 'Bavarian threat' to Ukrainian shores, the only way for the Ukrainian Navy to justify it's budget is to carry the war to the enemy.

Generally, I am following the theory that the Ukraine wants to have a short victorious war with Bavaria, get it done with before the Hapsburgs or ESC decide to get involved. Already the ESC and Hapsburgs have announced mobilizations which are diverting Ukrainian troops from the front. (1) If the Navy is to support this, it has to conduct operations early on, and cause pain to the Bavarians as soon as possible. 

The Ukrainians have a fleet train- colliers and oilers.  If the initial goal was to establish a blockade line at the Gulf of Ortanto, I was expecting Greek or Ottoman ports serve as supply points.  Guinness/CTwaterman and I have discussed alternative reactions to the Italian note.

Sufficient forces- including the monitors and some destroyers, all the patrol vessels, and 2 colliers & 2 oilers were left behind to congregate at Sevastopol.
Originally I was only sending 2 battleships, but Guinness felt that if you're sending any, send all.

I wasn't aware the Vlodymirs were in reserve, thought they were active, gave them the week to get to mobilization.
On the other hand, there is a substantial difference between calling up 25,000 men and calling up 1,100. I doubt 5 weeks is reasonable. Alternately the Navy could have been planning some exercise or another. Personally I'd be happy to leave them behind as the odds against me get much more sane.

The first step is to hunt down Bavarian raiders- hence 5x 6" CLs were dispatched to guard Ukrainian assets in the Aegean. They match up reasonably against the Liepzig class while the 1914 CLs are armed with 100mm guns and would not fare as well.

The second step was a distant blockade against the foe- shut down his mercantile marine.
The Straits or Ortanto are perfect for this. 40nm choke point. This would have an additional bonus of not allowing Bavarian merchants to divert to Italian/Hapsburg ports along the Adriatic

This also is nicely near Greek ports where your colliers can ferry fuel to your fleet, and within a couple days steaming of the foe's shore, so you can conduct raids.
Tip & run raids on the Bavarians would help cause that 'pain' for a short war. Minelayers can sow Bavarian waters, while sweepers can open the path for bombardment or amphibious raids.

Or at least thats why I don't view it as 'crazy'.


(1) The Hapsburg are also causing a number....6 or 7 ..Bavarian Corps to stay put, and the French border is fully manned.

[ctwaterman]

Given the Ukrainians desire to grab territory and hurt the Bavarians quickly and then offer terms the plan the Naval Plan was or is not completely without merrit.  It may not accomplish what it wants but its not a bad plan.

That and even with the Italia note the Ukranians have to know that the Empire is over extended and just fought a series of very large naval battles in the Rift Sea with the Majority of its fleet.  If this fleet was in the Med and not missing a half dozen Cruiser or larger vessels and say 25 Destroyers then this plan would look alot worse.

The Hapsburgs are of course still the Wild Card as well as Iberian influenced Greece.   Italia certainly wouldnt be allowing Ukranian Colliers the right to refuel.


Of Course there is alot of Radio Traffic between Rome, North Africa, and Italia Bases in the Rift.  Its all in basic codes so have fun....  but all of this will occur after the Italia meeting with the Ukrainian Ambassador who incidently was probably accredited under the Old Ukrainian King.

[Sachmle]

Call me crazy, but I don't think this is a good idea for the Hetman if news of it is ever leaked to say....Austria, Italy, Iberia, etc...:

Prelate of All the Ukraine Khrapovitsky (1) softly said, "The common thread that binds the Poles together is their faith. They will do what their Catholic masters dictate. Even now agents of Rome whisper their lies in the ears of the Catholic Heirarchy. Can it be a coincidence that King Lugwig and King Frederick are known to be devout Catholics? I say not. They seek to derail what we....what you are creating here. If you are searching for vipers at our breast, I say Aleksander Kakowski is the king of vipers. Not content to be Archbishop of Warsaw, did you know he calls himself "Primate of Poland' and that that last year he founded the "Catholic Action" league? He consults with Rome to destroy us. They will send the Inquisition to ferret out our New Truth and denounce it, like that Kurgan heretic tried. 

Of course, one can not forget the Jews, the authors of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion . No war can happen without the Jewish bankers issuing loans for it, can it? 

I have a list I can provide of those that plot against you. Would you like me to give it to the Minister for Interior Affairs?

Hetman Skorapadskyi : "Yes, do that. With the leadership of those organizations removed, the body will wither.  "

[Kaiser Kirk]

I hinted the Ukraine was moving in that direction in my Dec 6 and Dec 14 1919 news :)

[ctwaterman]

http://www.traditioninaction.org/History/A_012_FirstCrusade_Urban.htm

The Above link goes to an appropriate speach that could be used the target of such a speach might very well be Kiev.   But that is in another time, the likely response from the Vatican has already been taken.  The Dispatch of envoys and a very stern letter to the Archbishop of Constantinople and the "Other" Bishops of the Eastern or Asian Churches warning of the assumption of temporal power by the Bishop of Kiev.

On the other hand you probably wont here the Vatican offering to try and find a peaceful settlement once the Hetmans troops start rounding up Catholic Bishops and Arch-Bishops.   

Slowly fills out the Disponsation forms for the people likely to be invading.

Charles

[TexanCowboy]

So that's where those people on Kituk Island came from! (See Romanian news, Ca. 1917).

[Kaiser Kirk]

I was aware of the Eye activity reported then.
And hey, if you're going to demonize your foes....

[Desertfox]

Bloody hell... That's just what I need, a massacre of nuns blamed on the Swiss. *grumble*

Mods, I think I should be getting a nice bonus in 1921...  ;)

[Sachmle]

Bloody hell... That's just what I need, a massacre of nuns blamed on the Swiss. *grumble*

Mods, I think I should be getting a nice bonus in 1921...  ;)

How would Swiss get into Urkraine?

[Kaiser Kirk]

Tex- you not only had that long ago article, but Blooded put the Kurgan out there hunting the Eye...so I provided some.

Fox-  I thought the New Swiss Army knife joke was cute, and Foxy, you were the one that decided to ship arms to these folks.
I just figure it was a gift to the Prelate from the New Swiss Consul or something.
Of course the four freighters filled with arms for the Ukraine are still on their way.

[ctwaterman]

*slaps forehead*.....

Good Lord the New Swiss are guilty again....

[Sachmle]

*slaps forehead*.....

Good Lord the New Swiss are guilty again....

D'oh! The SWISS army knife...lol. Now I get it.

[Desertfox]

Oh that's right, that was BEFORE the Ukrainians went all crazy... *grumble* Stupid Ukranians... btw those supplies might not arrive, due to timing those ships might be recalled.

i did get the knife joke, thought the symbol in N-verse might be a tad different that OTL ;-)