CSA Battlecruisers

[Sachmle]

it was 3m? Guess without a drawing I am jumping to conclutions

Judging by the pic on Navypedia it looks to be at least 1 full deck higher at the stem than the main deck..so 3m isn't absurd. Remember though, Vanguard, like KGV before it, could not fire A turret directly ahead at 0 elev.

EDIT: It's 22 pixel from waterline to main deck and 33 from waterline to the stem. If the main deck height was the same as the KGVs it's 24' so the stem is ~30.25' up so not quite 3m.

[Delta Force]

So, I've revised it again into a fast battleship. What do you think of it now, with its very thick armor? If the armor is bumped down by two inches on the belt and across the main turrets it can pack eight 16 inch guns. I don't have a good weight for what a 16 inch shell would be in CSA service though.

CSA Battlecruiser, CSA Battlecruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
   40,303 t light; 42,790 t standard; 47,820 t normal; 51,844 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   872.70 ft / 872.70 ft x 105.32 ft (Bulges 111.88 ft) x 31.17 ft (normal load)
   266.00 m / 266.00 m x 32.10 m (Bulges 34.10 m)  x 9.50 m

Armament:
      8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,000.00lbs / 907.18kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 5.50" / 140 mm guns (8x2 guns), 75.00lbs / 34.02kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 17,208 lbs / 7,805 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 158

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   18.0" / 457 mm   580.00 ft / 176.78 m   16.50 ft / 5.03 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 102 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1.00" / 25 mm   580.00 ft / 176.78 m   24.75 ft / 7.54 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   20.0" / 508 mm   14.0" / 356 mm      10.0" / 254 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      6.00" / 152 mm

   - Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 16.00" / 406 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 94,427 shp / 70,443 Kw = 26.22 kts
   Range 22,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 9,055 tons

Complement:
   1,616 - 2,101

Cost:
   £8.109 million / $32.438 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,855 tons, 3.9 %
   Armour: 16,573 tons, 34.7 %
      - Belts: 7,284 tons, 15.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 531 tons, 1.1 %
      - Armament: 3,557 tons, 7.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,747 tons, 9.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 454 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 3,302 tons, 6.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 18,173 tons, 38.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 7,517 tons, 15.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 400 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     86,698 lbs / 39,325 Kg = 51.4 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 13.5 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.15
   Metacentric height 7.1 ft / 2.2 m
   Roll period: 17.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.55
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.34

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.550
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.80 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29.54 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 41 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      22.47 ft / 6.85 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.47 ft / 6.85 m
      - Mid (50 %):      22.47 ft / 6.85 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   22.47 ft / 6.85 m
      - Stern:      22.47 ft / 6.85 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.47 ft / 6.85 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 67.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 169.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 64,142 Square feet or 5,959 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 124 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 200 lbs/sq ft or 978 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.02
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Logi]

Armor is way to thick. You can't just slab armor on until you have no more composite strength. The main belt has to be rolled and processed. General rule of thumb is that no nation can produce a sheet of metal thicker than 14" without suffering from a rapid drop in armor quality.

[mentat]

  it's getting into the right zone as a Heavy 40k ton Fast BB

  - still suggest tweaks on Armour - max is 14-15" - although you could add a bit splinter armour (1-1.5") for Magazines

-  the Barbettes need to be more than 10" - maybe 13"  whilst the Other Gunhouse -  Turret roof, sides + back is thicker than needed - 7-8" should do it

Basically for 40 k tons you can have 8 x 15" + proper BB protection at 28-9 knots

more speed can be had for 160k shp - but will need to drop firepower/armour :(

small points:

The Bulge is only 3' each side - not sure it serves much purpose

I think you might want Clipper bow on Fast BB - make it look good - angle 15-20 degrees

[mentat]

  This is an example of quite balanced design - but deck armour is too thick at 6" for this period  - 4" enough + Seaboat is excessive at 1.38 (what was I thinking at the time?)

  - so 29 knots seems feasible ....


    40k t, Large BC laid down 1918

Displacement:
   39,713 t light; 41,709 t standard; 44,028 t normal; 45,884 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   869.99 ft / 856.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 31.75 ft (normal load)
   265.17 m / 260.91 m x 32.92 m  x 9.68 m

Armament:
      8 - 15.00" / 381 mm guns (3 mounts), 1,950.00lbs / 884.51kg shells, 1918 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      20 - 4.33" / 110 mm guns (10x2 guns), 40.00lbs / 18.14kg shells, 1918 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts
      6 - 3.15" / 80.0 mm guns in single mounts, 15.00lbs / 6.80kg shells, 1918 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      32 - 1.00" / 25.4 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.50lbs / 0.23kg shells, 1918 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 16,506 lbs / 7,487 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   433.00 ft / 131.98 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   3.00" / 76 mm   265.00 ft / 80.77 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
     158.00 ft / 48.16 m Unarmoured ends
   Upper:   4.00" / 102 mm   320.00 ft / 97.54 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
     Main Belt covers 78 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.80" / 46 mm   491.00 ft / 149.66 m   31.00 ft / 9.45 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.0" / 381 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   3rd:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.50" / 38 mm      2.00" / 51 mm

   - Armour deck: 6.00" / 152 mm, Conning tower: 16.00" / 406 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 113,948 shp / 85,006 Kw = 28.00 kts
   Range 9,500nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,174 tons

Complement:
   1,519 - 1,975

Cost:
   £6.960 million / $27.838 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,803 tons, 4.1 %
   Armour: 16,151 tons, 36.7 %
      - Belts: 4,525 tons, 10.3 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,014 tons, 2.3 %
      - Armament: 3,186 tons, 7.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 6,996 tons, 15.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 430 tons, 1.0 %
   Machinery: 4,111 tons, 9.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,299 tons, 39.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,315 tons, 9.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 350 tons, 0.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     67,721 lbs / 30,718 Kg = 40.1 x 15.0 " / 381 mm shells or 10.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 17.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.59
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.34

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.525
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.93 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 29.26 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 25.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.00 ft / 9.14 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Mid (50 %):      25.00 ft / 7.62 m (18.00 ft / 5.49 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.05 ft / 6.72 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 77.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 167.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 63,030 Square feet or 5,856 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 198 lbs/sq ft or 968 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.08
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Valles]

The Maori have rolled consistent belt plates as thick as 15", though even I don't know what their rejection percentages were like, but I don't think anyone else has gone in for that. The CSA and the Maori have pretty friendly relations, so depending on my own build schedule, you should be able to order anything up to 40cm (15.7") belt plates from Maori armor mills.

[Sachmle]

The Maori have rolled consistent belt plates as thick as 15", though even I don't know what their rejection percentages were like, but I don't think anyone else has gone in for that.

Yes, but didn't you do a story on that and spend some IC $$ on the process?

I don't have a good weight for what a 16 inch shell would be in CSA service though.

CSA 16" shell would most likely be a 2,500lbs shell, judging by historical practice.

[Delta Force]

What kind of limit is there on turrets? Aren't those cast as one large piece so can have thicker armor than the belt?

[Sachmle]

What kind of limit is there on turrets? Aren't those cast as one large piece so can have thicker armor than the belt?

Depends. If you use face-hardened armor (Class "A" in US nomenclature) it's probably that 15.7(40cm) Maori, or 13.8(35cm) from elsewhere. However, if you use homogeneous (Class "B") the thickest I can find is the 19" solid plate on USS Alabama. Most of the SoDak BBs had 18.5-19.5" face plates, but other than Alabama they were 2 plates laminated together. IMHO, I'd say 18" Class "B" or 15" Class "A".

[Delta Force]

This is something of a light battlecruiser. It carries six 16 inch guns in two triple turrets, and has a top speed of 29 knots, all for a displacement of 29,750 tons.

John S. Mosby, CSA Battlecruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
   29,750 t light; 31,473 t standard; 33,708 t normal; 35,496 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   721.78 ft / 721.78 ft x 98.43 ft x 28.58 ft (normal load)
   220.00 m / 220.00 m x 30.00 m  x 8.71 m

Armament:
      6 - 16.00" / 406 mm guns (2x3 guns), 2,500.00lbs / 1,133.98kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread
      12 - 4.75" / 121 mm guns (6x2 guns), 50.00lbs / 22.68kg shells, 1920 Model
     Dual purpose guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 1.58" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 2.00lbs / 0.91kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
   Weight of broadside 15,608 lbs / 7,080 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.0" / 305 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   16.50 ft / 5.03 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.00" / 51 mm   470.00 ft / 143.26 m   24.75 ft / 7.54 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.0" / 356 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   6.00" / 152 mm   3.00" / 76 mm      3.00" / 76 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 8.00" / 203 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 120,722 shp / 90,059 Kw = 29.00 kts
   Range 12,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 4,023 tons

Complement:
   1,243 - 1,617

Cost:
   £7.069 million / $28.276 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,617 tons, 4.8 %
   Armour: 10,028 tons, 29.7 %
      - Belts: 4,006 tons, 11.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 861 tons, 2.6 %
      - Armament: 2,147 tons, 6.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,833 tons, 8.4 %
      - Conning Tower: 180 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 4,221 tons, 12.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,384 tons, 39.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,959 tons, 11.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40,777 lbs / 18,496 Kg = 19.9 x 16.0 " / 406 mm shells or 6.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 5.7 ft / 1.7 m
   Roll period: 17.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.67
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has low forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.581
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.33 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.87 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 68
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      19.85 ft / 6.05 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   19.69 ft / 6.00 m (19.85 ft / 6.05 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      19.85 ft / 6.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   19.85 ft / 6.05 m
      - Stern:      19.85 ft / 6.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.83 ft / 6.04 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 155.3 %
   Waterplane Area: 51,050 Square feet or 4,743 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 192 lbs/sq ft or 938 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.24
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[TexanCowboy]

I have concerns that that would fit...

[Delta Force]

I have concerns that that would fit...

Do you mean in terms of the armament? The beam is only 3 meters less than the Iowas and 2 less than the 1920s South Dakotas. It might be a tight fit, but the ship can definitely fit triple 16s.

[Sachmle]

1. The CSA doesn't have a 16" gun as of yet. However they have a rather nice 15"/40(maybe even 45 by now, have to go report digging) firing a 2,000lbs shell. I'd start with it if you want a lay down by 1920.

2. While 30m is probably enough beam to fit a 16" triple, the 0.581 block coefficient combined with the 30m beam and the TDS makes me think TexanCowboy may be right. However, if you see #1 this would most likely solve your issues as it is smaller, and a twin mount. 8x15 may be doable with little tinkering and minor weight gain.

3. 8" Conning Tower armor is neither fish nor fowl. It's too thin to stop an AP round, yet to thick to let it pass through without arming it. All 8" will do is guarantee you tower crew is scrambled by the 1st hit. If you want to STOP a round, 12-15", if you want to stop HE and splinters 2" is enough and SHOULD let BB caliber AP rounds pass through w/o arming.

4. See # 3 in regards to your secondary armor. 6" is defiantly heavy enough to stop DD and CL rounds and most CA rounds at range, but not anything heavier. On the other hand, 3" would work just as well, still stopping DD rounds and CL/CA rounds at range, and still not stopping BB rounds, while being a)Cheaper and b)Lighter. Lighter leads to faster training and elevation (not really seen in Springsharp, but at least considered, AFAIK, in wargamming.)

[TexanCowboy]

I have concerns that that would fit...

Do you mean in terms of the armament? The beam is only 3 meters less than the Iowas and 2 less than the 1920s South Dakotas. It might be a tight fit, but the ship can definitely fit triple 16s.

The Iowa's forward 16'' turrets were some of the most cramped to ever see service, and the 1920s South Dakotas had a much larger BC.

[snip]

Of couse this design cannot be layed down in 1920 as the CSA has no 16" gun as Sam pointed out. Also, 6 guns is the absolute bare minumen for effective FC in this timeframe, so expect it to take much longer for this ship to get the range right. With its thin armor for the guns it mounts compared to some BBs around, it may not have that time. As the current trends go, BCs of all forms appear to be phased out in favor of Fast BBs. IMO, these are worse ships then the newest class of CSA BBs and really are not needed based on the ships that the CSA has and how those classes can be built on.