An Iberian Hood

[ctwaterman]

I agree the Large Armored Cruisers are probably more useful in the Long Run.   And since they are armored well enough to stand in your Line of Battle they can fill in as a BB in a pinch.

[miketr]

OK I will see how I can tweak the AC design some more.  Will see what 3x2 400mm guns looks like.

I looks like the AC design is the favorite. 

It would also give me 4 AC's to go with my 4 BB's in line of battle.  So that would be 2 Fernando de Magallanes
http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=673.msg26050#msg26050

Plus two of the new design. 

All the AC's with at at least 305mm armor; of course the new design has improved KC so its even more effective. 

Michael

[miketr]

OK same AC hull with 3x2 400mm guns.  I reduced the upper belt to 200mm to provide a thicker torpedo defense and some other changes to the secondaries.

I am not thrilled with the 6 guns for shooting is all.

Michael

AC 1922-C1, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
   35,000 t light; 36,644 t standard; 39,633 t normal; 42,025 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   787.40 ft / 787.40 ft x 98.43 ft x 30.18 ft (normal load)
   240.00 m / 240.00 m x 30.00 m  x 9.20 m

Armament:
      6 - 15.75" / 400 mm guns (3x2 guns), 1,952.76lbs / 885.76kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      8 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 102.98lbs / 46.71kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,600 lbs / 5,715 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   511.81 ft / 156.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   7.87" / 200 mm   511.81 ft / 156.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   511.81 ft / 156.00 m   28.18 ft / 8.59 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   9.84" / 250 mm      12.6" / 320 mm
   2nd:   4.72" / 120 mm   2.95" / 75 mm      4.72" / 120 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 139,800 shp / 104,291 Kw = 29.64 kts
   Range 14,890nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,382 tons

Complement:
   1,403 - 1,825

Cost:
   £8.760 million / $35.039 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,575 tons, 4.0 %
   Armour: 14,146 tons, 35.7 %
      - Belts: 5,895 tons, 14.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,051 tons, 2.7 %
      - Armament: 2,755 tons, 7.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,101 tons, 10.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 345 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,742 tons, 12.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,107 tons, 35.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,633 tons, 11.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 430 tons, 1.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     54,889 lbs / 24,897 Kg = 28.1 x 15.7 " / 400 mm shells or 8.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 16.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.50
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.10

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.593
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.98 ft / 6.70 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.67 ft / 6.30 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.01 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.10 ft / 6.43 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 88.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 56,312 Square feet or 5,232 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 180 lbs/sq ft or 877 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.04
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Jefgte]

This one is exellent, this is not Hood but a "Super Renown"

Just a correction to made Mike, Allianza 400mm gun fire a 1000kg shell. (thanks to Rocky  ;)  )


Jef  ;)

[Kaiser Kirk]

How much speed does a 4th turret cost?

When do you hit a good gun platform- i.e., if the ship is meant for accurate (6 guns) shooting at range (speed) when does it hit good seakeeping/slow role ?

Do you believe 4 x 150mm /side is adequate vs. DDs after the Rift war?

Why the continuance of 200mm armor at all on the upper belt? That seems overkill for protecting against the weapons of virtually all cruisers.

Interestingly, the freeboard at midpoint is 6.3m.   Figuring the upperbelt extends to there, the main belt starts at +3.86m and extends to -1.14m.  Alternately, the upper belt doesn't extend to the weather deck, but stops 1/2 deck shy.

[miketr]

How much speed does a 4th turret cost?

See up thread for a 35,000 ton design w/ 4x2 400mm; its 4 - 5 knots.

When do you hit a good gun platform- i.e., if the ship is meant for accurate (6 guns) shooting at range (speed) when does it hit good seakeeping/slow role ?

No idea

Do you believe 4 x 150mm /side is adequate vs. DDs after the Rift war?

Not really, most likely I can put a twin 120mm one to one for a single 150mm.  Also the 150mm are full turrets so they should be better at engaging targets.

Why the continuance of 200mm armor at all on the upper belt? That seems overkill for protecting against the weapons of virtually all cruisers.

Interestingly, the freeboard at midpoint is 6.3m.   Figuring the upperbelt extends to there, the main belt starts at +3.86m and extends to -1.14m.  Alternately, the upper belt doesn't extend to the weather deck, but stops 1/2 deck shy.

Why the continuance of 200mm armor at all on the upper belt? That seems overkill for protecting against the weapons of virtually all cruisers.

Interestingly, the freeboard at midpoint is 6.3m.   Figuring the upperbelt extends to there, the main belt starts at +3.86m and extends to -1.14m.  Alternately, the upper belt doesn't extend to the weather deck, but stops 1/2 deck shy.

The upper belt is to provide protection at range and in particular decap any shell that hits high on the ship.  It will then hit a 75mm armor deck sitting on top of the main belt.  See Bismark  Also I am actually worried about cruiser fire, if I could afford it I would like a 100mm belt along the water line but thats not practical.  

As to the height of the upper belt, I went with what looked enough to be the same height as the stern.  

Michael

[Kaiser Kirk]

Well, I get the idea behind the upper belt better now.  It's occurred to me that one of the oddities of the Princeregent Luitpold design is the extremely tall upper belt to protect the casements also means plunging fire will almost certainly hit that before the deck, which means it's deck is more robust than expected.

Twin 120mm would help more, but where I considered the problem to lie was getting sufficient rounds of sufficient mass down range to stop a DD charge. This ship can't quite run away, and if operating around Manila could wind up in island fights. Of course, she will likely have escorts.

I think it's a bit early to be actively considering decapping as a defense, and frankly a 100mm upper belt would do that job, and spare the weight for the end belts, while thwarting 6"- at likely ranges. 

The reason I asked about sea state is with 6x400, one hopes it's accurate, so the more you can do for that the better.  Of course different designers have different preferences.

On the 4th turret- forgot that :)

The aft freeboard of 6m is better, but still only gives a depth below WL of 1.44m.

[Guinness]

I'm not sure nverse designers have enough real battle data yet to lead them to purposefully design decapping arrangements. Stories about sinkexes and other experiments could change my mind though. This is more or less the same opinion I have of advanced AA fits.

I do think that a suitably well designed 12cm gun could make a suitable secondary battery armament. Something like a higher velocity 12cm/50 in a twin power operated turret. Essentially a slightly shrunken US 5"/51. this could offer a good tradeoff between numbers, RoF and hitting power. Another possible answer could be 14cm, which I think Iberia could license from her allies if she doesn't have it already.

[miketr]

I'm not sure nverse designers have enough real battle data yet to lead them to purposefully design decapping arrangements. Stories about sinkexes and other experiments could change my mind though. This is more or less the same opinion I have of advanced AA fits.

That is a far point, I like armor though and I personally don't think 100mm is thick enough to be useful for an upper belt.

The point is sorta moot also as we have no way to simulate the decaping effect of the upper belt for plunging fire or determine if a shell hits main, upper or ends.

I do think that a suitably well designed 12cm gun could make a suitable secondary battery armament. Something like a higher velocity 12cm/50 in a twin power operated turret. Essentially a slightly shrunken US 5"/51. this could offer a good tradeoff between numbers, RoF and hitting power. Another possible answer could be 14cm, which I think Iberia could license from her allies if she doesn't have it already.

140mm is too close to my 150mm, no real point for me to drop down to that; its 120mm or 150mm.

Michael

[ctwaterman]

I'm not sure nverse designers have enough real battle data yet to lead them to purposefully design decapping arrangements. Stories about sinkexes and other experiments could change my mind though. This is more or less the same opinion I have of advanced AA fits.

I do think that a suitably well designed 12cm gun could make a suitable secondary battery armament. Something like a higher velocity 12cm/50 in a twin power operated turret. Essentially a slightly shrunken US 5"/51. this could offer a good tradeoff between numbers, RoF and hitting power. Another possible answer could be 14cm, which I think Iberia could license from her allies if she doesn't have it already.

Oh You mean the Italia 127mm/L51 with the 50# shell

[Sachmle]

I'm not sure nverse designers have enough real battle data yet to lead them to purposefully design decapping arrangements. Stories about sinkexes and other experiments could change my mind though. This is more or less the same opinion I have of advanced AA fits.

I do think that a suitably well designed 12cm gun could make a suitable secondary battery armament. Something like a higher velocity 12cm/50 in a twin power operated turret. Essentially a slightly shrunken US 5"/51. this could offer a good tradeoff between numbers, RoF and hitting power. Another possible answer could be 14cm, which I think Iberia could license from her allies if she doesn't have it already.

Oh You mean the Italia 127mm/L51 with the 50# shell

No, I think he meant the Krupps 12cm/45 SK/L45 w/ a 24kg shell or the 13cm/45 SK/L45 w/ the 30kg shell.  ;)

[miketr]

Increased Torp Defense to 50mm, switched to 8x2 120mm in place of 8x1 150mm.  Decreased upper belt from 250mm to 200mm.

Michael

AC 1922-B3, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1922 (Engine 1920)

Displacement:
   35,001 t light; 36,567 t standard; 39,700 t normal; 42,207 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   787.40 ft / 787.40 ft x 98.43 ft x 30.18 ft (normal load)
   240.00 m / 240.00 m x 30.00 m  x 9.20 m

Armament:
      8 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,308.20lbs / 593.39kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 11,368 lbs / 5,157 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   511.81 ft / 156.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   7.87" / 200 mm   511.81 ft / 156.00 m   8.20 ft / 2.50 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   511.81 ft / 156.00 m   28.18 ft / 8.59 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   9.84" / 250 mm      12.6" / 320 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      2.95" / 75 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 140,001 shp / 104,441 Kw = 29.64 kts
   Range 15,300nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,641 tons

Complement:
   1,406 - 1,828

Cost:
   £8.466 million / $33.862 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,421 tons, 3.6 %
   Armour: 14,501 tons, 36.5 %
      - Belts: 5,929 tons, 14.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,051 tons, 2.6 %
      - Armament: 3,071 tons, 7.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,105 tons, 10.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 345 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,895 tons, 12.3 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,774 tons, 34.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,699 tons, 11.8 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 410 tons, 1.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     55,822 lbs / 25,320 Kg = 42.7 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 8.4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 54 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.09

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.594
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.98 ft / 6.70 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.67 ft / 6.30 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.01 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.10 ft / 6.43 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158.8 %
   Waterplane Area: 56,365 Square feet or 5,236 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 175 lbs/sq ft or 856 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.99
      - Longitudinal: 1.00
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[Jefgte]

IMO, the thickness of the upper belt is too much.
200mm is too much to stop medium shells & not enough vs heavy shell.
150 to 120mm is enough.

Like I wrote early, unarmoured bow is dangerous in battle. Add 120 or 150mm armor to reduce flooding.
Your BC is not named Osliabia or Lutzow!!!


Jef  ;)

[mentat]

Your 2 current ACs were very good in their day - but looking bit small + underpower now - so think 2 spanking new ones makes sense

Design looks great - my only thoughts - agree UB bit OTT - but MB could be thicker - go to 340 mm?  - or sim more Splinter protection for Mags

  + any way to up Steadiness - increase Beam - reduce Draft for more Stab. + trade-off on the Trim?

   - poss more Secs - either 12 x 150mm or 20 x 120mm ??

[miketr]

Reduced upper belt.

People might find this of interest, I did.

http://www.bismarck-class.dk/technicallayout/armour/armour.html

Michael

AC 1922-B4, Iberia Armored Cruiser laid down 1922

Displacement:
   35,001 t light; 36,565 t standard; 39,633 t normal; 42,088 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   787.40 ft / 787.40 ft x 98.43 ft x 30.18 ft (normal load)
   240.00 m / 240.00 m x 30.00 m  x 9.20 m

Armament:
      8 - 13.78" / 350 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,308.20lbs / 593.39kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns (8x2 guns), 52.72lbs / 23.92kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns in single mounts, 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.88kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 11,368 lbs / 5,157 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 120

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   511.81 ft / 156.00 m   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
   Ends:   2.95" / 75 mm   275.56 ft / 83.99 m   11.91 ft / 3.63 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   511.81 ft / 156.00 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   511.81 ft / 156.00 m   28.38 ft / 8.65 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   12.6" / 320 mm   9.84" / 250 mm      12.6" / 320 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      2.95" / 75 mm

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 139,800 shp / 104,291 Kw = 29.64 kts
   Range 15,310nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 5,523 tons

Complement:
   1,403 - 1,825

Cost:
   £8.407 million / $33.629 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,421 tons, 3.6 %
   Armour: 14,484 tons, 36.5 %
      - Belts: 5,909 tons, 14.9 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,058 tons, 2.7 %
      - Armament: 3,071 tons, 7.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,101 tons, 10.3 %
      - Conning Tower: 345 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 4,742 tons, 12.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 13,893 tons, 35.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,633 tons, 11.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 460 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     56,587 lbs / 25,667 Kg = 43.3 x 13.8 " / 350 mm shells or 8.6 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 6.1 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 16.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.48
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.07

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.593
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28.06 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.98 ft / 6.70 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.67 ft / 6.30 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.01 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      19.69 ft / 6.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.10 ft / 6.43 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 85.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 56,312 Square feet or 5,232 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 177 lbs/sq ft or 864 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.00
      - Longitudinal: 0.99
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent