Looking for some Help - what should Orange lay down in 1920?

[Nobody]

Your fast ships do 29kts. So minimum speed for a small cruiser should be 31kts. And range is excessive, which cost you a lot. Cut it to half. Go for ~1.00 seakeeping, the ship can slow down in heavy weather.

Long range and relatively high cruising speed were intentional (~7000 miles of shore and distant islands (although I don't know how far away they are)), but you have a point, I really should reduce the "fuel, ammunition & stores" section to about 10 to 15%.
Considering the stormy area in which Orange ship operate, I'm wondering whether 31 kn & normal seakeeping or 30 kn & high seakeeping are the better compromise...

End and upper belt unnecessary, main belt a bit too high. Armored deck could be shaved down a bit.

Too high? Really? I mean, whether the ship is full or empty, the weather nice or stormy and the ship moving fast or slow, the belt should still be able to cover the hull above and below the waterline.
I know that I should use AoN armor scheme, but don't you know the feeling that leaving these areas unprotected feels wrong? Even if that little bit of armor might be counterproductive?

[Logi]

I know that I should use AoN armor scheme, but don't you know the feeling that leaving these areas unprotected feels wrong? Even if that little bit of armor might be counterproductive?

I disagree, it's only worth the extra armor if the End Belt is 2-3". 1" is worthless and wasted weight, it stops nothing.

Too high? Really? I mean, whether the ship is full or empty, the weather nice or stormy and the ship moving fast or slow, the belt should still be able to cover the hull above and below the waterline.

At 30 kts, Bow Wave trough and crest is 1.8m in glass-still water. Still, wave crest and trough will dramatically decrease as it moves away from the bow.

Add in the average 1 meter high wave and I would say it's about right high for a belt if you don't what the waves to expose unprotected hull. Ofc I'm not counting full and light loads.

Now belt coverage on stormy days? Not so much.

[Nobody]

Reduced range & freeboard, slightly increased speed, firepower & armor.
More speed would increases engine room length to undesirable dimensions (about 117 m for 31 kn).

So Logi you just prove that I need a 4 m belt ^^ (1.8, say 2 m wave height plus 1 meter coverage above and below water = 4 m). I would also like to point out, that SS assumes all armor as additional, so to get the actual thickness one should add the normal hull plating (about 10 to 15 mm I assume) for thinner (homogeneous) armor.

CL 1920b, Orange Light Cruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
   7.000 t light; 7.265 t standard; 8.287 t normal; 9.104 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   551,19 ft / 541,34 ft x 52,49 ft x 20,01 ft (normal load)
   168,00 m / 165,00 m x 16,00 m  x 6,10 m

Armament:
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      4 - 1,00" / 25,4 mm guns in single mounts, 0,50lbs / 0,23kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 955 lbs / 433 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 180
   6 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3,15" / 80 mm   354,33 ft / 108,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   1,57" / 40 mm   187,00 ft / 57,00 m   8,69 ft / 2,65 m
   Upper:   1,18" / 30 mm   354,33 ft / 108,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 101% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3,94" / 100 mm   1,97" / 50 mm      3,94" / 100 mm
   2nd:   1,18" / 30 mm         -         1,97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0,59" / 15 mm         -         0,98" / 25 mm
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,57" / 40 mm, Conning tower: 4,72" / 120 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 62.528 shp / 46.646 Kw = 30,30 kts
   Range 4.010nm at 20,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1.839 tons

Complement:
   433 - 564

Cost:
   £1,540 million / $6,158 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 119 tons, 1,4%
   Armour: 1.548 tons, 18,7%
      - Belts: 841 tons, 10,2%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 108 tons, 1,3%
      - Armour Deck: 557 tons, 6,7%
      - Conning Tower: 42 tons, 0,5%
   Machinery: 2.186 tons, 26,4%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.904 tons, 35,0%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.286 tons, 15,5%
   Miscellaneous weights: 243 tons, 2,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9.483 lbs / 4.301 Kg = 87,8 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 1,3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,13
   Metacentric height 2,4 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 14,2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,510
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10,31 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23,27 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 55 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 20,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0,30 ft / 0,09 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26,25 ft / 8,00 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   22,64 ft / 6,90 m
      - Mid (45%):      22,64 ft / 6,90 m (15,09 ft / 4,60 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   15,09 ft / 4,60 m
      - Stern:      15,75 ft / 4,80 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,83 ft / 5,74 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 129,2%
   Waterplane Area: 19.107 Square feet or 1.775 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 116%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 88 lbs/sq ft or 429 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,95
      - Longitudinal: 1,49
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Misc (243 t)
100 t FC, type 1918
25 t Radio
25 t electronic rangefinder  ("Radar", type 1915)
25 t Night fighting equipment, type 1912
25 t Sonar (GHG & Echo sounding), type 1916
30 t Torpedos & Reloads (15), Type 1913
13 t reserve

main belt is improved KC 80 mm + backing + hull (~12 mm)
end belt is homogeneous, actual thickness ~52 mm (40+12)
upper belt is homogeneous, actual thickness ~42 mm (30+12)
I'm still taking/looking for advices.

[Kaiser Kirk]

For most nations, the hull wasn't made out of even low quality armor steel. The USN was the exception.

[Sachmle]

This question has puzzled me for a while, and this ship has this feature, so I'll ask it here. Why is the barbette armor thicker than the belt? I realize that the barbette covers a very vulnerable piece of the ship, but so does the belt. Isn't it much more likely to get hit square on the belt than the barbette? It seems that the part of the barbette that is actually thick on most RL ship was only the part above the armored deck, after that it was rather thin, and if the ship had an upper belt it was thin below the main deck too, though not as thin as below the MAD. Plus, barbettes are curved, so the odds of a square hit are even lower. Seems to me the barbette shouldn't be any thicker than the belt, if not thinner since the odds of hitting it are rather low compared to the belt, or even the mount face. IDK, maybe I'm missing something.

[Kaiser Kirk]

OTL you saw that in various navies as well.
The USN tended to have heavier armor on the main battery as it was the essential element of the ship.
The French thinned their barbettes towards other barbettes - A vs B turret.
The Brits felt hits in the vital were more important than loosing a turret- they viewed a turret loss as expected to be part of the weaponry, while a magazine or boiler explosion could put the vessel in hazard.

Myself, I agree with Sachmle.   Usually my turret faces are thicker, to compensate for the strength lost for the holes for the guns, while the Barbettes are thinner as they are curved.

SS appears to model barbettes as starting at the waterline, raising them to the freeboard level. Superimposing seems to add ~1/3 freeboard height to that barbette. Upper belt and mainbelt have no effect.

[Nobody]

For most nations, the hull wasn't made out of even low quality armor steel. The USN was the exception.

I know, but that's not the point.
If someone tells you he has built a ship with a 20 mm armor, you wouldn't expect that to be a normal hull with additional 20 mm plates bolted on top of it, right? But SpringSharp does. Which is correct for thick KC-plates, but not for thin homogeneous armor (or the armored deck for that matter) were the armor itselfs replaces the normal hull(deck).

This question has puzzled me for a while, and this ship has this feature, so I'll ask it here. Why is the barbette armor thicker than the belt? I realize that the barbette covers a very vulnerable piece of the ship, but so does the belt. Isn't it much more likely to get hit square on the belt than the barbette? It seems that the part of the barbette that is actually thick on most RL ship was only the part above the armored deck, after that it was rather thin, and if the ship had an upper belt it was thin below the main deck too, though not as thin as below the MAD. Plus, barbettes are curved, so the odds of a square hit are even lower. Seems to me the barbette shouldn't be any thicker than the belt, if not thinner since the odds of hitting it are rather low compared to the belt, or even the mount face. IDK, maybe I'm missing something.

Good question.

In the OTL ships I know the barbette armor is similar to the turret frontal armor, which is thicker than the belt. Reasons might be

• that even light damage to them means you loose firepower, while there is still some damage absorbing space behind the belt.
  
• they always "face" the enemy directly, while you can try to steer your ship in a favorable angle to your adversary.
  
• if you have only a few tons left they appear better spent in a noticeable increase in small areas than a fraction of a mm more belt.
  
  

  
  SS appears to model barbettes as starting at the waterline, raising them to the freeboard level. Superimposing seems to add ~1/3 freeboard height to that barbette. Upper belt and mainbelt have no effect.
  

  In other words - since the barbettes I know end at the armor deck, which is at least slightly (~1 m) above the waterline - our barbettes would actually be thicker?

[snip]

On the barrette issue: I personaly always have them as thick or thicker as the main belt. I feel that the barrettes are one component that can never fail if combat effectiveness is to be maintained, so they should be protected at least as well, if not better, then the rest of the armor citadel

[Logi]

On the barrette issue: I personaly always have them as thick or thicker as the main belt. I feel that the barrettes are one component that can never fail if combat effectiveness is to be maintained, so they should be protected at least as well, if not better, then the rest of the armor citadel

That's my own feeling on barbette thickness as well. My reasoning is that if the belt is penetrated, it's not a definite problem. If the barbette is penetrated, it's a huge problem.

[Kaiser Kirk]

If someone tells you he has built a ship with a 20 mm armor, you wouldn't expect that to be a normal hull with additional 20 mm plates bolted on top of it, right? But SpringSharp does. Which is correct for thick KC-plates, but not for thin homogeneous armor (or the armored deck for that matter) were the armor itselfs replaces the normal hull(deck).

Actually, if you call out a 20mm belt, I expect a piece of 20mm thick hardened armor bolted onto the exterior of the hull. Unless you're right at that borderline of partial penetration the mild steel of the hull doesn't offer much difference to matter. For that matter, we don't account for hits that happen to coincide with structural members either. They happen, but get waved off.

SS appears to model barbettes as starting at the waterline, raising them to the freeboard level. Superimposing seems to add ~1/3 freeboard height to that barbette. Upper belt and mainbelt have no effect.

In other words - since the barbettes I know end at the armor deck, which is at least slightly (~1 m) above the waterline - our barbettes would actually be thicker?
[/quote]

It really seems like the armor deck is simmed right at the waterline. I was checking barbette armor weights starting with as little as 0.01feet of freeboard- where it was 0. If anything, some nations carried barbette armor below the armor deck- albeit thinner as splinter armor- and that protection is absent here.

As for protecting guns vs. protecting vitals- it's all a choice. That's part of the fun of making designs. 

[Nobody]

If someone tells you he has built a ship with a 20 mm armor, you wouldn't expect that to be a normal hull with additional 20 mm plates bolted on top of it, right? But SpringSharp does. Which is correct for thick KC-plates, but not for thin homogeneous armor (or the armored deck for that matter) were the armor itselfs replaces the normal hull(deck).

Actually, if you call out a 20mm belt, I expect a piece of 20mm thick hardened armor bolted onto the exterior of the hull. Unless you're right at that borderline of partial penetration the mild steel of the hull doesn't offer much difference to matter.

Okay, but I know quite a number of ships were relatively thin armor (up to ~140 mm) - were it was applied - replaced the hull, bulkheads and decks, which is why I thought this would always be the case.

[P3D]

Indeed, SS2 assumes the armored deck is at the waterline, and machinery+magazine spaces are below it. Which is actually a pretty good assumption for pre-Jutland ships.

Which ships did not have backing plate? Just curious.

Homogeneous armor can be used as a load-bearing structure. Even so, most armored decks had a backing plate.
Face-hardened armor (or low-ductility homogeneous one) cannot be used as load-bearing structure, it can take some compressive loads, however.

The Japanese pioneered using the load-bearing armored belt in their cruisers, but they had to use homogeneous armor, decreasing the resistance of the belt significantly. Against destroyers it is a good idea, but not for facing 8" AP shells.

The US went the other way, their class A (face hardened) armor was great against 8" projectiles, but not for larger shells.

[Nobody]

Which ships did not have backing plate? Just curious.

Homogeneous armor can be used as a load-bearing structure. Even so, most armored decks had a backing plate.
Face-hardened armor (or low-ductility homogeneous one) cannot be used as load-bearing structure, it can take some compressive loads, however.

As I said it thin homogeneous plates armor only.
For example the outer skin of US battleships, but more importantly all German inter war ships and I think some French ships.
The other way around: can you give one example were it is explicitly stated that the homogeneous armor is on top of the normal hull/deck? I can not give you a link right now which could proof my point - partly maybe because something that isn't there is not emphasized. I do have some hints tough:

• for the German battleships the end belts are described as either "outer skin armor" or "hull/skin thickness"
  
• it says the upper deck "was made of 50 mm Wh"
  
• it is pointed out that KC armor, which had to be attached on top of the outer hull was too heavy and not installed on any new German ship until 1933, and that the new weldable armor therefore saved quite a lot of weight.

[Nobody]

Back to ships. I was wondering what I could gain by reducing the speed (since SS2 doesn't seem to be very good at simming ships it the 30+ range).
I choose 27 kn which is 3 to 4 knots faster than the battle line.

Version A:
CL 1920c, Orange Light Cruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
   7.000 t light; 7.279 t standard; 8.718 t normal; 9.869 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   515,04 ft / 492,13 ft x 52,49 ft x 19,69 ft (normal load)
   156,98 m / 150,00 m x 16,00 m  x 6,00 m

Armament:
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all amidships
      4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 1,00" / 25,4 mm guns in single mounts, 0,50lbs / 0,23kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 955 lbs / 433 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 190
   6 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4,13" / 105 mm   377,30 ft / 115,00 m   13,12 ft / 4,00 m
   Ends:   2,17" / 55 mm   114,83 ft / 35,00 m   8,69 ft / 2,65 m
   Upper:   1,97" / 50 mm   377,30 ft / 115,00 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 118% of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1,18" / 30 mm   377,30 ft / 115,00 m   21,33 ft / 6,50 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   3,15" / 80 mm      5,51" / 140 mm
   2nd:   1,18" / 30 mm         -         1,97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0,59" / 15 mm         -         0,98" / 25 mm
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5,91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 44.342 shp / 33.079 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 7.022nm at 18,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2.590 tons

Complement:
   450 - 586

Cost:
   £1,329 million / $5,316 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 119 tons, 1,4%
   Armour: 2.415 tons, 27,7%
      - Belts: 1.162 tons, 13,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 352 tons, 4,0%
      - Armament: 160 tons, 1,8%
      - Armour Deck: 688 tons, 7,9%
      - Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0,6%
   Machinery: 1.550 tons, 17,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.665 tons, 30,6%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.718 tons, 19,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 2,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13.209 lbs / 5.992 Kg = 122,3 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 2,4 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12
   Metacentric height 2,4 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 14,3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,41
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,38 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24,28 ft / 7,40 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Mid (46%):      21,65 ft / 6,60 m (14,44 ft / 4,40 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   14,44 ft / 4,40 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,28 ft / 5,57 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 117,2%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117,2%
   Waterplane Area: 18.894 Square feet or 1.755 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 130%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 86 lbs/sq ft or 418 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,44
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


Since the TDS made it rather cramped, I made Version 2:
CL 1920c2, Orange Light Cruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
   7.000 t light; 7.279 t standard; 8.718 t normal; 9.869 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   515,04 ft / 492,13 ft x 52,49 ft x 19,69 ft (normal load)
   156,98 m / 150,00 m x 16,00 m  x 6,00 m

Armament:
      8 - 6,00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108,00lbs / 48,99kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 3,00" / 76,2 mm guns in single mounts, 13,50lbs / 6,12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline, all amidships
      4 - 1,57" / 40,0 mm guns in single mounts, 1,95lbs / 0,88kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
      4 - 1,00" / 25,4 mm guns in single mounts, 0,50lbs / 0,23kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 955 lbs / 433 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 190
   6 - 21,0" / 533,4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   319,88 ft / 97,50 m   14,76 ft / 4,50 m
   Ends:   2,17" / 55 mm   172,24 ft / 52,50 m   8,69 ft / 2,65 m
   Upper:   1,97" / 50 mm   319,88 ft / 97,50 m   8,01 ft / 2,44 m
     Main Belt covers 100% of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5,91" / 150 mm   3,15" / 80 mm      5,91" / 150 mm
   2nd:   1,18" / 30 mm         -         1,97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   0,59" / 15 mm         -         0,98" / 25 mm
   4th:   0,39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 1,97" / 50 mm, Conning tower: 5,91" / 150 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 44.342 shp / 33.079 Kw = 27,00 kts
   Range 7.022nm at 18,00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2.590 tons

Complement:
   450 - 586

Cost:
   £1,329 million / $5,316 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 119 tons, 1,4%
   Armour: 2.407 tons, 27,6%
      - Belts: 1.504 tons, 17,3%
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0,0%
      - Armament: 160 tons, 1,8%
      - Armour Deck: 688 tons, 7,9%
      - Conning Tower: 54 tons, 0,6%
   Machinery: 1.550 tons, 17,8%
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2.674 tons, 30,7%
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1.718 tons, 19,7%
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 2,9%

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     13.129 lbs / 5.955 Kg = 121,6 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 2,0 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10
   Metacentric height 2,3 ft / 0,7 m
   Roll period: 14,6 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,42
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1,20

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0,600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9,38 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22,18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 58
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15,00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24,28 ft / 7,40 m
      - Forecastle (20%):   22,31 ft / 6,80 m
      - Mid (46%):      21,65 ft / 6,60 m (14,44 ft / 4,40 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15%):   14,44 ft / 4,40 m
      - Stern:      16,40 ft / 5,00 m
      - Average freeboard:   18,28 ft / 5,57 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 72,5%
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 117,2%
   Waterplane Area: 18.894 Square feet or 1.755 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 130%
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 86 lbs/sq ft or 420 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0,96
      - Longitudinal: 1,47
      - Overall: 1,00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily


Opinions on these?

[P3D]

I'd consider a CL an expendable ship, You cannot armor it against 9" shells. The occasional 5" shell hit outside the citadel won't matter that much.

31kts CL laid down 1920

Displacement:
   6,499 t light; 6,752 t standard; 7,600 t normal; 8,278 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   530.00 ft / 530.00 ft x 53.00 ft x 18.00 ft (normal load)
   161.54 m / 161.54 m x 16.15 m  x 5.49 m

Armament:
      8 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 107.15lbs / 48.60kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 2.76" / 70.0 mm guns in single mounts, 10.47lbs / 4.75kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 900 lbs / 408 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   6 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.20" / 81 mm   396.00 ft / 120.70 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.20" / 30 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 66,441 shp / 49,565 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 16.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,526 tons

Complement:
   406 - 529

Cost:
   £1.530 million / $6.118 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 112 tons, 1.5 %
   Armour: 1,128 tons, 14.8 %
      - Belts: 621 tons, 8.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 57 tons, 0.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 426 tons, 5.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 25 tons, 0.3 %
   Machinery: 2,323 tons, 30.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,685 tons, 35.3 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,101 tons, 14.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 250 tons, 3.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,048 lbs / 3,197 Kg = 65.8 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
   Metacentric height 2.7 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 13.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.34
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.04

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.526
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.02 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 58 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.00 ft / 7.62 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Mid (45 %):      22.00 ft / 6.71 m (14.00 ft / 4.27 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Stern:      14.00 ft / 4.27 m
      - Average freeboard:   17.84 ft / 5.44 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 114.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 124.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 19,171 Square feet or 1,781 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 110 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 424 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.30
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Slowing down the ship to 27kts relegates it into a "speedbump to be positioned between a DD charge and the battleline" category, thus expendable, and not really meriting protection outside the citadel - if it would be sunk it would be by torpedoes not DD gunfire. For that a 4000t ship is adequate. Will cede the initiative to the enemy, though.

Speedbump CL, laid down 1920

Displacement:
   3,999 t light; 4,198 t standard; 4,860 t normal; 5,390 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   390.00 ft / 390.00 ft x 49.00 ft x 16.50 ft (normal load)
   118.87 m / 118.87 m x 14.94 m  x 5.03 m

Armament:
      8 - 5.98" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 107.15lbs / 48.60kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      4 - 2.76" / 70.0 mm guns in single mounts, 10.47lbs / 4.75kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
      8 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.06lbs / 0.03kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 900 lbs / 408 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 200
   6 - 24.0" / 609.6 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.10" / 79 mm   261.00 ft / 79.55 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 103 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.10" / 28 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 34,222 shp / 25,529 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 6,000nm at 16.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,192 tons

Complement:
   290 - 378

Cost:
   £0.950 million / $3.800 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 112 tons, 2.3 %
   Armour: 755 tons, 15.5 %
      - Belts: 411 tons, 8.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 56 tons, 1.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 269 tons, 5.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 19 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,197 tons, 24.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 1,754 tons, 36.1 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 861 tons, 17.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 180 tons, 3.7 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     5,549 lbs / 2,517 Kg = 51.8 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 2.2 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 13.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.49
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.539
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.96 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.75 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 62 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 59
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (45 %):      21.00 ft / 6.40 m (13.00 ft / 3.96 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Stern:      13.00 ft / 3.96 m
      - Average freeboard:   16.84 ft / 5.13 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 102.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 100.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 13,206 Square feet or 1,227 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 82 lbs/sq ft or 400 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.93
      - Longitudinal: 2.12
      - Overall: 1.01
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate