Potential Battlewagons of Bavaria

[Kaiser Kirk]

Basically something I've slowly been tinkering with.

This is for folks to argue over..or skip entirely, while I'm gone.

Post 1 : Index
Post 2 : endless blathering about design parameters
Post 3 : List of designs tried
Post 4 : Three candidate vessels.
   -FDG I
   -Wotan
   -Dragoon

What's the point?   Basically, I really can't decide quite where I want to go with this one. So I was wondering on people's views – lightest tonnage vs highest tonnage, 8,10 or 12 guns,  23, 26 to 28 knots, etc. 

Personally I'm inclined towards slow and heavily armored, with more guns, something like Frederich der Gross I, one of the slowest but heaviest armed & armored, though Wotan is attractive and faster.  But the difference between them, or between Maximillian I are hard to choose from. Max is smaller and more weakly armed,  but takes the most damage at 15.5 torps. She also has the advantage of shallow draft allowing berthing other than Trieste.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Post 2
Need : Little

Desire : Moderate.  When Rumania backstabed and declares war on an ally, Bavaria was vexed that it lacked  a Naval force that can intercept and destroy that convoy if needed. There are powers like Greece, the Ottomans, Egypt, and Bahrat which can also field vessels the Bavarians would be hard put to defeat. Lastly, Bavaria found she had little to offer allies even in the Med.  Bavaria would be foolish to try to compete with any of the established Naval powers, but can afford a centerpeice vessel or two.

Purpose : To field 1 or 2 vessels which will accomplish the following goals
1)Force opponents to commit more than an armored cruiser to deal with Bavarian forces
2)Supplement allied units if needed
3)Prove superior to pre-Arcadias and early Arcadias which are most likely to be fielded by other 2nd and 3rd string naval powers.  
4) Shell coastal infrastructure.

Alternatives :
Torpedo Cruisers : The reports from the Rift War, sketchy as they are, would make this attractive in some ways. However, reliant on speed to close the range. Between fouling, 1916 machinery, and the need to rely on coal firing, this can only be achieved by larger, poorly armed and armored ships fielded in sufficient numbers to score sufficient hits. Given that speeds keep increasing, these could rapidly become obscelescent.

Lots O Destroyers : Very attractive, sufffering from the same limitations as torpedo cruisers, with the added negative of incapacity to engage shore fortifications and questionable seakeeping on the high seas.

Seaplanes : Too short range, not capable of operating effectively (within Moral limts) against merchants, or defending mercantile traffic. Hard to field enough in the right place.

Seaplane Carrier : Hard to field one which can effectively mount seaplane torpedo strikes.


Design parameters
Most Bavarian designers learned in Hapsburg schools, and were either retired in 1906, or very junior with local links.  Recent design experience on large vessels has been gained from both the Netherlands and the Republic of China. This both provides an array of experience in design, construction and faults, but also some very different philosophical backgrounds.

FC
Current Fire Control is adequate to 16.5km, but it is understood that nations are developing FC for out to 22km.  Given visibility from mast top is limited by height and curvature of the planet,  it is expected that 24km may prove the maximum possible range to spot and engage a battleship sized target. During design, expected combat ranges are +/- 4km of FC range so 12.5-20.5km. Beyond that is considered functionally unlikely to occur.

Weaponry
Largest Bavarian gun is a 330mm that was designed with RR artillery and coastal fortification use in mind, featuring a lower MV for a heavy shell for terminal effects on fortifications or bombarding vessels. A twin turret was designed in conjunction to allow naval use.

The rumors from the Rift, combined with accurate French sharing of losses, suggest that torpedos may be a significant threat. Bavaria will almost certainly lack a heavy screening force.  A torpedo defense system and a heavy secondary battery are mandatory.

With casement elevations limited to about 22 degrees, and most single mounts to 35 degrees, the current range of the 12cm and 15cm guns are 15km, while the 18cm weapon can attain 18km and 20km respectively. The 18cm weapon, while slightly slower in ROF, both reaches the outer limits of FC, and  is also seen as far more certain of a devastating hit on a destroyer.

Note :    
   1) I use biggun and a poor shell form, improved shell forms will extend these ranges in practice.
   2) While I know Biggun isn't the most accurate program, it is both easy, and I doubt the 1919 Bavarians have the data to accurately generate more accurate results.

Additionally, it is expected that in a ship to ship action, secondaries can be used to maintain range ladder bracketing or that volleys of the secondary firing HC/HE can be used in an effort to destroy FC, riddle bows/sterns without end armor, riddle funnels and start fires.

Anti-aircraft will be provided by a mix of the new 90mm QF gun in an AA mount, and the antiquated 37mm PomPom.


Armor :
The Bavarians lack both All-or Nothing and Sloped armor. Personally I buy the misgivings the Brits had about sloped armor and why they abandoned it in KGV after using it in Nelson.

With face hardening tech giving diminishing returns after ~350mm, that tends to be belt maximum.
Turret faceplates can be thicker, because they have giant holes and need the thickness for strength, while barbettes are curved and can be slightly thinner, further they can be thinner on the face towards the other barbette, and below the upper armor.  Belts extend 1.5-2m underwater.

End armor is seen as useful for stopping cheap mobility kills by cruiser class weapons, and should be thick enough to stop major caliber splinters.

Armor decks are expected to be either the first deck above waterline, or the 2nd deck – figureing 2.44m decks and a starting offset for the double bottom below- and meet the top of the main belt. A second deck may be specified over the upper belt.  Generally speaking the expecation is the areas of the vessel outside the citadel will have lesser armored decks- cruiser proof- and thicker patches applied to magazine crowns. A gain of 15% over the citadel is expected.

From Biggun, expected deck penetration for the 33cm gun at 20km is ~12cm, so an averaged deck thickness around 10.5cm  is desired.

Torpedo bulkheads in several designs rise above the waterline to the main armor deck behind the main belt, serving as an additional barrier to catch splinters and chunks ejected from the belt. Not only does this expand the volume of the TDS, but a shell just barely penetrating may be so slow it explodes in the TDS.

I've seen some mentions that make me think the Gangut may have had similar arrangement. This wouldn't be as good as a decapping plate 1-2m out, but may be better than just making the belt thicker with diminishing returns...certainly more interesting :)

Narrow bulges are used in some cases to provide some additional stand off distance for the TDS.

Machinery
Propulsion is coal priimarily, supplemented by oil. This allows operations to principally be conducted just on the readily available coal. Ranges are based on the idea of coal-only trips, with a desired coal-range of 4000-6500nm.

Machinery is turbo-electric, allowing better damage control and better turning ability due to the ability to run some screws in full reverse. This should make dodging torpedoes easier, as well as docking.

Speed bands are 22-24 : 1 knot of old ESC, 25-27 1 knot of new ESC, or 29-31 for BC

Hull Form
Governing depths are 7.5m for and X m for Suez.
Desired BC range is 0.525- 675
Short & beamy, shallow draft, tubby hulls with slow steady rolls are desired.  Faster turning, better gun platfroms with plenty of room to deal with torpedo damage.

[Kaiser Kirk]

Post 3
Ships :
The result of all this is that I've gone off and made 21 various designs and I'm at a loss as to which to actually pursue.

Name :
Tonnage Light
x330mm, x180mm, x90mm
Xmm MB, Xmm UB, Xmm Deck, X TDS (+)
X knts, y% coal, X range

The (+) means the TDS extends above the WL behind the Main belt.

DeMaximus II
42,100t
12x33cm, 28x18cm, 8x9cm
35cm MB, 15cm UP, 11cm D, 7.5cm TDS (+)
26kts, 66%, 9974nm

DeMaximus I
38,500t
12x33cm, 28x18cm, 8x9cm
35cm MB, 15cm UP, 11cm D, 5cm TDS
26kts, 66%, 10023nm

Karl der Gross II
36,500t
12x33cm, 28x18cm, 8x9cm
35cm MB, 15cm UP, 11cm D, 5cm TDS
23kts, 66%, 10310nm

Hyuga
36,000t
12x33cm, 16x18cm, 12x9cm
35cm MB, 7.5cm UP, 11cm D, 5cm TDS
26kts, 66%, 10070nm

Mjollnir II
36,000
10x330mm, 20x120mm, 8x90mm
350mm MB, 75mm UB, 115mm Deck, 50mm TDS (+)
26 knts, 66% coal, 10014 nm range

Wotan
35,490t
12x33cm, 24x18cm, 12x9cm
35cm MB, 12cm UP, 100cm D, 4cm TDS (+)
26kts, 66%, 9990nm


Karl der Gross I
32,839t
10x33cm, 28x18cm, 14x9cm
35cm MB, 15cm UP, 11.5cm D, 7.5cm TDS (+)
22.25kts, 66%, 9600nm

Maximillian I
32,000t
8x330mm, 22x120mm, 12x90mm
350mm MB, 150mm UB, 105mm Deck, 50mmTDS (+)
23.25knts, 66% coal, 9910nm range

Frederich der Gross I
31,880t
10x33cm, 28x18cm, 14x9cm
35cm MB, 15cm UP, 11.5cm D, 7.5cm TDS (+)
22.25kts, 66%, 9600nm

Stalwart
34,690t
8x330mm, 16x180mm, 12x90mm
350mm MB, 75mm UB, 98mm Deck, 50mm TDS (+)
26.25 knts, 66% coal, 9900nm range

Stalwart II
34.500
10x330mm, 16x180mm, 12x90mm
350mm MB, 150mm UB, 105mm Deck, 50mm TDS (+)
24.25 knts, 66% coal, 9970nm range

Saxe
31,000t
8x330mm,16x120mm, 16x90mm
350mm MB, 120mm UB, 100mm Deck, 50mm TDS
26 knts, 75% coal, 7500 nm range

Ritter
30,500t
8x330mm, 16x120mm, 12x90mm
330mm MB, 75mm UB, 90mm Deck, 40mm TDS
28.25 knts, 25% coal, 10780nm range

Dragoon
28,982t
8x330mm, 16x150mm, 12x90mm
350mm MB, 75mm UB, 100mm Deck, 40mm TDS
27knts,66% coal, 9900nm range

De Minimus
28,870t
8x33cm, 16x15cm, 8x9cm
35cm MB, 7.5cm UP, 11cm D,4cm TDS
26kts, 66%, 9900nm

Helvetica
27,500t
10x330mm, 16x150mm, 16x90mm
350mm MB, 75mm UB, 100mm Deck, 50mm TDS
27.25 knts, 0% coal, 6500nm range

Lillehammer
26,600t
8x330mm, 20x120mm, 8x90mm
350mm MB, 75mm UB, 115mm Deck, 50mm TDS
26 knts, 66% coal, 9120 nm range

Mjollnir V
26,000
8x330mm, 20x180mm, 8x90mm
350mm MB, 75mm UB, 120mm Deck, 50mm TDS (+)
22 knts, 25% coal, 9890 nm range
note : 4.71 L:B

De Minimus II
24,640t
8x33cm, 16x15cm, 8x9cm
35cm MB, 7.5cm UP, 11cm D, 4cm TDS
22kts, 66%, 9900nm

Kurfurst III
22,300t
8x330mm, 16x150mm, 8x90mm
325mm MB, 125mm UB, 90mm Deck, 40mm TDS
22 knts, 90% coal, 8440 nm range

[Kaiser Kirk]

Post 4

Wotan, Bavaria Battleship laid down 1916

Displacement:
   35,490 t light; 37,871 t standard; 41,979 t normal; 45,266 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   698.82 ft / 695.54 ft x 98.43 ft (Bulges 108.27 ft) x 31.17 ft (normal load)
   213.00 m / 212.00 m x 30.00 m (Bulges 33.00 m)  x 9.50 m

Armament:
      12 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (6x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 3 raised mounts
      12 - 7.09" / 180 mm guns in single mounts, 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      8 - 7.09" / 180 mm guns in single mounts, 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread
      4 - 7.09" / 180 mm guns in single mounts, 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
      12 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1916 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 20,635 lbs / 9,360 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130
   5 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   426.51 ft / 130.00 m   16.54 ft / 5.04 m
   Ends:   2.95" / 75 mm   268.70 ft / 81.90 m   16.54 ft / 5.04 m
   Upper:   4.72" / 120 mm   426.51 ft / 130.00 m   8.33 ft / 2.54 m
     Main Belt covers 94 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead and Bulges:
      1.57" / 40 mm   426.51 ft / 130.00 m   38.45 ft / 11.72 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.8" / 375 mm   9.84" / 250 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   4.72" / 120 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   4th:   1.97" / 50 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   5th:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.20" / 5 mm            -

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 94,133 shp / 70,223 Kw = 26.00 kts
   Range 9,990nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 7,395 tons (66% coal)

Complement:
   1,466 - 1,906

Cost:
   £5.928 million / $23.711 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,212 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 14,597 tons, 34.8 %
      - Belts: 5,487 tons, 13.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 956 tons, 2.3 %
      - Armament: 4,059 tons, 9.7 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,736 tons, 8.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 359 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 3,731 tons, 8.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,340 tons, 34.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 6,490 tons, 15.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 610 tons, 1.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     49,514 lbs / 22,459 Kg = 45.2 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 7.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.14
   Metacentric height 6.3 ft / 1.9 m
   Roll period: 18.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.51
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.01

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.626
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.42 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.37 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): -12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 3.28 ft / 1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.59 ft / 6.58 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.59 ft / 6.58 m (18.31 ft / 5.58 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      18.31 ft / 5.58 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.31 ft / 5.58 m
      - Stern:      19.95 ft / 6.08 m
      - Average freeboard:   19.09 ft / 5.82 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 92.7 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 122.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 51,296 Square feet or 4,766 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 198 lbs/sq ft or 969 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.98
      - Longitudinal: 1.12
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

Belt Armor : 
The main belt covers from the 5th deck, at +3.04m AWL to -2m BWL. The upper belt carries to the 6th, or weather deck.

The 5th deck serves as the main armor deck, at 75mm, while the 6th deck is 25mm, forming a cruiser-proof upper citadel. The 5th deck thins outside this citadel to 25mm fore and 50mm aft, capping the 75mm end belts. The weight savings is placed into proportionately thicker armor in the citadel.


The TDS rises above water as well, reaching the 5th deck. This both extends the height of the compartment and the 40mm bulkhead will serve to minimize damage from shells penetrating the belt.  Fragments, chunks and splinters will easily be contained, and if the shell detonates, the tough and flexible steel of the bulkhead may contain the explosion.

Weaponry :
Main battery is arranged in superimposed pairs  A/B, P/Q, X/Y.
Secondary battery is comprised of deck mounts in pyramids between the main batteries, and a casement battery.
Tertiary battery is arranged in the superstructure, above the plane of the main guns.

Only one Torpedoes is actually submerged. One is in the forefoot, to allow ahead fire..
The remaining 4 are mounted between the 4th and 5th decks just aft of the citadel in the stern area, protected by the end belts and deck armor, but only ~1.8m above water.

Frederich Der Grosse, Bavaria Battleship laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   31,880 t light; 34,034 t standard; 37,818 t normal; 40,845 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   557.67 ft / 547.90 ft x 114.83 ft x 31.17 ft (normal load)
   169.98 m / 167.00 m x 35.00 m  x 9.50 m

Armament:
      10 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (5x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
      4 - 7.09" / 180 mm guns in single mounts, 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
      24 - 7.09" / 180 mm guns in single mounts, 187.39lbs / 85.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      4 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 18,575 lbs / 8,426 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   328.74 ft / 100.20 m   14.80 ft / 4.51 m
   Ends:   2.95" / 75 mm   219.13 ft / 66.79 m   14.80 ft / 4.51 m
   Upper:   5.91" / 150 mm   328.74 ft / 100.20 m   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 92 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      2.95" / 75 mm   328.74 ft / 100.20 m   38.58 ft / 11.76 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.7" / 400 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      13.8" / 350 mm
   2nd:   1.97" / 50 mm   1.97" / 50 mm      1.97" / 50 mm
   3rd:   5.91" / 150 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.98" / 25 mm            -
   5th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 4.53" / 115 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 55,188 shp / 41,170 Kw = 22.25 kts
   Range 9,600nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,812 tons (66% coal)

Complement:
   1,355 - 1,762

Cost:
   £7.344 million / $29.377 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,006 tons, 5.3 %
   Armour: 14,176 tons, 37.5 %
      - Belts: 4,212 tons, 11.1 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,386 tons, 3.7 %
      - Armament: 4,113 tons, 10.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,130 tons, 10.9 %
      - Conning Tower: 334 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 2,187 tons, 5.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 12,571 tons, 33.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,938 tons, 15.7 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 940 tons, 2.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     57,568 lbs / 26,113 Kg = 52.5 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 11.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.12
   Metacentric height 7.6 ft / 2.3 m
   Roll period: 17.5 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.52
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.22

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.675
   Length to Beam Ratio: 4.77 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.41 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 57
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.27 ft / 1.30 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      25.89 ft / 7.89 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.25 ft / 7.39 m
      - Mid (65 %):      24.25 ft / 7.39 m (16.24 ft / 4.95 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (20 %):   16.24 ft / 4.95 m
      - Stern:      16.24 ft / 4.95 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.57 ft / 6.58 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.2 %
   Waterplane Area: 49,307 Square feet or 4,581 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 106 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 195 lbs/sq ft or 952 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.92
      - Longitudinal: 2.06
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

Dragoon, Bavaria Battlecruiser laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   28,982 t light; 30,590 t standard; 34,190 t normal; 37,069 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   717.75 ft / 705.38 ft x 93.50 ft x 28.71 ft (normal load)
   218.77 m / 215.00 m x 28.50 m  x 8.75 m

Armament:
      8 - 12.99" / 330 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1,322.77lbs / 600.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
      16 - 5.91" / 150 mm guns in single mounts, 99.21lbs / 45.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in casemate mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     16 guns in hull casemates - Limited use in heavy seas
      12 - 3.54" / 90.0 mm guns in single mounts, 22.05lbs / 10.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side ends, evenly spread, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
      8 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 12,447 lbs / 5,646 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 130

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   419.13 ft / 127.75 m   12.96 ft / 3.95 m
   Ends:   2.95" / 75 mm   286.22 ft / 87.24 m   12.96 ft / 3.95 m
   Upper:   2.95" / 75 mm   419.13 ft / 127.75 m   12.01 ft / 3.66 m
     Main Belt covers 91 % of normal length

   - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.57" / 40 mm   419.13 ft / 127.75 m   27.40 ft / 8.35 m

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   14.8" / 375 mm   7.87" / 200 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
   2nd:   2.95" / 75 mm   0.98" / 25 mm      0.98" / 25 mm
   3rd:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -
   4th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 93,989 shp / 70,115 Kw = 27.00 kts
   Range 9,900nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 6,479 tons (66% coal)

Complement:
   1,256 - 1,634

Cost:
   £6.286 million / $25.143 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 1,337 tons, 3.9 %
   Armour: 11,369 tons, 33.3 %
      - Belts: 4,337 tons, 12.7 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 669 tons, 2.0 %
      - Armament: 2,430 tons, 7.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,620 tons, 10.6 %
      - Conning Tower: 313 tons, 0.9 %
   Machinery: 3,725 tons, 10.9 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 11,350 tons, 33.2 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 5,208 tons, 15.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 1,200 tons, 3.5 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     44,698 lbs / 20,274 Kg = 40.8 x 13.0 " / 330 mm shells or 6.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.16
   Metacentric height 5.9 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 16.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 51 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.47
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.02

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.632
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.54 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.56 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 12.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.56 ft / 2.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      27.33 ft / 8.33 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   24.05 ft / 7.33 m (20.77 ft / 6.33 m aft of break)
      - Mid (55 %):      20.77 ft / 6.33 m (12.76 ft / 3.89 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.76 ft / 3.89 m
      - Stern:      12.76 ft / 3.89 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.08 ft / 5.51 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 89.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 128.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 49,696 Square feet or 4,617 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 168 lbs/sq ft or 820 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 1.00
      - Longitudinal: 1.00
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent


Armor
Main Belt : Main belt raises to main deck level, at 1.45m above WL, and covers to 2.5m below WL.

Upper Belt :Above the main belt the upperbelt  is 2.44 aft of the break, raising to 3.89m,  and 4.88m fore of the break, rising to freeboard in both locations. This means the foreward portion of the vessel is armored from the waterline to the freeboard deck.

End Belts : Intended to stop shell splinters from turning the ends of the ship into a collander, the end belts are sufficiently thick to stop smaller caliber common rounds as well.

Armor Deck : The armor deck is in several thicknesses
A 30mm deck caps the Upper Belt at the citadel
A 70mm deck covers the entire hull above the main and end belts
Beyond the citadel, where there is no upper belt, there is no additional 30mm of armor deck, rather this material is used as patches over the magazines and boilers.

Machinery
Primary propulsion is by coal, with the vessel reaching 24.25kts on coal power.
The rarer oil is used for sprints.
Cruising speed requires 9.5% power, allowing clinker to be cleaned as boilers are rotated in service.
Range on just coal is 6600nm.

Electric machinery makes the machinery rooms smaller and better divided, and allows running screws full speed in reverse, allowing rapid decelleration and turns. These features are expected to be of use against torpedoes.

Weaponry
Main armanent is traditional A, B, X, Y
Secondary armanent is arranged 8 per side, dispersed from B to X turrets, with the forward 4 guns below the forecastle deck to minimize spray. Interior armor screens are intended to minimize the chances of a single shell wiping out the battery.

Tertiary armanent is 90mm guns in trios at the superstructure corners. The middle gun of the trio is elevated above the flanking pair.

The antiquated 37mm guns are dotted around the superstructure.

Miscellaneous weight

[maddox]

You forgot 1 source of Tech, all those lovely French ships you did, and are, building

[TexanCowboy]

Dragoon and De Minimus seem like the best choices to me...I'd recommend not going above 35,000 tons without first signing Richmond...

[Laertes]

De Minimus I or Lillehammer for me... while I would vote for Ritter on the grounds of high speed, the low coal/oil ratio seems odd.

[Sachmle]

Honestly they're all nice in their own way. However, I'd go with a set up based off you 'minimum accepted values' and see where you end up. Looks like 22kts is the minimum speed, so start there. Seems 66% is the average coal % so I'd go with that. Even in support of your Leipzig partners range isn't a big concern, 6500-7500@~12kts should do. For armor I'd go 35cm belt, 15cm UB, 10cm deck, and 5cm TDS (+). Then fit in 10x33cm and 8x9cm and as many 15cm secondaries as there is room for. I'm guessing it should come in between 28,000 and 30,000 tons.

[Guinness]

Dragoon and De Minimus seem like the best choices to me...I'd recommend not going above 35,000 tons without first signing Richmond...

Why would a non-signatory of Richmond worry about building a ship over it's limit? Or in other words, I don't understand this post. :)

[maddox]

Maybe that the Richmond Signatories could object... or take messures.

[Guinness]

I suppose, but given that any nation that is not a signatory of Richmond isn't bound by it, I fail to see what (legal) recourse there would be. The idea that those who signed Richmond are all of a sudden going to go around and enforce it on non-signatories seems fantastic to me.

Of course, this also brings to the fore a key flaw in Richmond: not everyone has signed it. Effectively, Bavaria and/or the Dutch could simply build ships in excess of the limits which can then operate alongside their allies in the ESC. I can imagine a fair number of interesting schemes by which the ESC might compensate their allies for the services of such ships.

[TexanCowboy]

Dragoon and De Minimus seem like the best choices to me...I'd recommend not going above 35,000 tons without first signing Richmond...

Why would a non-signatory of Richmond worry about building a ship over it's limit? Or in other words, I don't understand this post. :)

Cause that could cause the collapse of Richmond, with other nations saying "If they can do it, why can't we?" Richmond's one of the few things holding back the French Fleet from building a fleet of Hood's...

[Guinness]

Only a few nations (I suspect) would actually care if the French built a bunch of Hoods vs. a bunch of 35,000t almost Hoods. At any rate, nowhere in the Treaty does it say that a signatory can leave it or escalate light tonnage of ships just because a non-signatory has chosen to build over 35k tons.

So as a thought experiment:

Lets say the Ottomans decided to build a pair of 40k ton 16" armed monsters. What happens next?

France might say "well, we can't be outbuilt, can we", and lay down their own, breaking the Treaty. The Treaty itself is silent on what happens next, unfortunately. Without any mechanism for this situation, the signatories could decide individually if they too would break the treaty. I suspect that for most of them, "well France did it" would be justification enough.

So in that scenario the treaty regime falls. I suppose for the Bavarians that might be bad, since their ally the ESC was a major proponent of qualitative limitation. Still, I'd call this a worse case scenario.*

A more likely scenario would see the non-signatory that had laid down the big-ass ships being intensively lobbied by the signatories to think twice about that idea. I imagine that such a lesser power might have some leverage in negotiations with those who want to prop up Richmond. This sounds like a good thing for the lesser power involved to me.

*Footnote: I suppose the French, should the power in question be Bavaria, could just invade the Bavarians, but that seems awfully apocalyptic.

[Jefgte]

Could I suggest, KK, the standard BB speed - 21-22kts -

Actually, fast BBs cost too much in BPs - engines techno is not tip-top.


Jef  ;)

[maddox]

If the Ottomans lay down a pair of 40Kton superdreadnaughts, it takes a few years to finish them (at least 3 years, at huge cost), in that time others will have responded. 
Unless a Yamato/Masque style situation is enacted, everything looking peachy from the outside, but in reality, it's entirely different.
But Richmond ain't up to such situations. Just because there is no way non signatories can be controled nor punished within that treaty.

On the other hand, if the signatorees can get their act together, it can be enforced, messely if needed.