Middle Kingdom Design Studies for 1920

[snip]

now if the dam war would end then I might be able to build one. I think my neighbors might not like me to much if that happens  :)

[snip]

A new destroyer design. Less torp tubes but double the number of guns from the last class. Uped the guns to 100mm as well.

Bi?oqi?ng (Javelin) Class, Chinese Destoryer laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,558 t standard; 1,722 t normal; 1,853 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   387.13 ft / 377.30 ft x 31.50 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)
   118.00 m / 115.00 m x 9.60 m  x 3.00 m

Armament:
      4 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 37.48lbs / 17.00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      2 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1915 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      6 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 160 lbs / 73 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 38,980 shp / 29,079 Kw = 33.00 kts Trial Speed 33.5 kts
   Range 3,250nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 295 tons

Complement:
   133 - 173

Cost:
   £0.485 million / $1.940 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 17 tons, 1.0 %
   Armour: 8 tons, 0.5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 8 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 991 tons, 57.5 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 445 tons, 25.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 222 tons, 12.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 2.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     374 lbs / 170 Kg = 12.3 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.17
   Metacentric height 1.2 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 12.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 93 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.26
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.03

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak, low quarterdeck
   Block coefficient: 0.515
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.98 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.42 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 91
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 1.31 ft / 0.40 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Mid (50 %):      14.76 ft / 4.50 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   12.30 ft / 3.75 m (13.12 ft / 4.00 m before break)
      - Stern:      12.30 ft / 3.75 m
      - Average freeboard:   13.82 ft / 4.21 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 196.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 104.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,029 Square feet or 746 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 56 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 29 lbs/sq ft or 142 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 1.20
      - Overall: 0.54
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Sachmle]

IMHO, a BC of 0.515 is a little 'fat' for a DD and a L/B of 11.98/1, while inside the rules, is unneeded in this case. I'd make her a little beamier (11/1 or 10.5/1 L/B) and then cut weight back to 1,500t to lower the BC. Also, I'd ditch 1 10cm and 1 5cm and put some speed on her 33kts ain't gonna be fast for long.

[snip]

It took me a wile to get this one to get into 1.0 seakeeping. I can play with it some more, but idk how well it will work on this hull. Light DP is already at 1500, what one should I cut back?

[Sachmle]

It took me a wile to get this one to get into 1.0 seakeeping.

Why bother? You operate in the East China Sea and the South China Sea, not exactly known for bad weather (granted their are monsoons, but DDs won't be out in that anyway). Remember Guinness' work on Springsharp vs RL DDs seakeeping? Most RL DDs came in between 0.60 and 0.80 for SS seakeeping. Something like this....

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,551 t standard; 1,714 t normal; 1,844 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   387.14 ft / 377.30 ft x 32.81 ft x 10.10 ft (normal load)
   118.00 m / 115.00 m x 10.00 m  x 3.08 m

Armament:
      3 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 37.48lbs / 17.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
      1 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.86lbs / 1.75kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward, 1 raised gun
      6 - 0.50" / 12.7 mm guns in single mounts, 0.09lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 117 lbs / 53 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.59" / 15 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 48,000 shp / 35,808 Kw = 34.79 kts
   Trial Speed = 35.57 kts
   Range 3,250nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 293 tons

Complement:
   133 - 173

Cost:
   £0.504 million / $2.015 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 12 tons, 0.7 %
   Armour: 4 tons, 0.2 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 4 tons, 0.2 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 1,075 tons, 62.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 369 tons, 21.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 214 tons, 12.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 2.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     260 lbs / 118 Kg = 8.5 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
   Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 11.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.60

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.480
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.42 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 100
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 29.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.75 ft / 0.23 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forecastle (15 %):   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
      - Mid (39 %):      16.01 ft / 4.88 m (8.01 ft / 2.44 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (10 %):   8.01 ft / 2.44 m
      - Stern:      8.01 ft / 2.44 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.15 ft / 3.40 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 210.6 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 68.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,098 Square feet or 752 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 46 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 139 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.59
      - Overall: 0.51
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

....would be quite scary due to it's high speed and heavy torpedo load.

[snip]

After some tweeking with help from Sachmle

Bi?oqi?ng (Javelin) Class, Chinese Destoryer laid down 1920 (Engine 1916)

Displacement:
   1,500 t light; 1,552 t standard; 1,715 t normal; 1,846 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   387.13 ft / 377.30 ft x 32.81 ft x 9.84 ft (normal load)
   118.00 m / 115.00 m x 10.00 m  x 3.00 m

Armament:
      3 - 3.94" / 100 mm guns in single mounts, 37.48lbs / 17.00kg shells, 1915 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on centreline ends, majority aft, 1 raised mount aft
      1 - 1.97" / 50.0 mm guns in single mounts, 3.81lbs / 1.73kg shells, 1915 Model
     Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
     on centreline forward, 1 raised gun
      6 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 119 lbs / 54 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   8 - 21.0" / 533.4 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 47,823 shp / 35,676 Kw = 34.68 kts Trial Speed 35.5 kts
   Range 3,250nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 294 tons

Complement:
   133 - 173

Cost:
   £0.504 million / $2.016 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 12 tons, 0.7 %
   Armour: 2 tons, 0.1 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 2 tons, 0.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 1,074 tons, 62.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 371 tons, 21.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 215 tons, 12.5 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 40 tons, 2.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     264 lbs / 120 Kg = 8.7 x 3.9 " / 100 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.21
   Metacentric height 1.3 ft / 0.4 m
   Roll period: 11.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 61 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.09
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.61

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.493
   Length to Beam Ratio: 11.50 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.42 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 68 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 100
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 30.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.36 ft / 0.11 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   14.76 ft / 4.50 m
      - Mid (40 %):      14.76 ft / 4.50 m (8.86 ft / 2.70 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8.86 ft / 2.70 m
      - Stern:      8.53 ft / 2.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.33 ft / 3.45 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 210.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 69.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,193 Square feet or 761 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 46 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 28 lbs/sq ft or 138 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.60
      - Overall: 0.50
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is extremely poor
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

Thoughts?

[TexanCowboy]

You sacrifice too much for speed. Equivelent british ships of the size and error, the Admiratly type destroyer leaders or Scott class, carried 5x4.7'' guns. Sticking with the 4'' gun, I would recommend 6 of them, perhaps in twin mounts, aXy, or ApQpXy, with Q superfiring over the beam P guns.

[snip]

Well I have a 4.7 inch gun so I could use that instead. Taking a look at the Searchlight class, which is a destroyer leader, I guess I could split DDs into to branches, one uber-speed-boat-from-hell type with lots of torps and a slower but more heavly gun armed "Fleet Destroyer"

[Sachmle]

You sacrifice too much for speed. Equivelent british ships of the size and error, the Admiratly type destroyer leaders or Scott class, carried 5x4.7'' guns

And managed to get 36.5kts on 40,000shp. Here we get just under 34.7kts on 48,000shp and I'd be willing to bet the 40,000shp engine/boiler set in Scott weighed less than 1,000t too. But...since SS is broke we have to deal.

My thoughts were that MKs biggest issues are RRC, NS, and then maybe Japan(Doubt it). So range isn't a big deal, nor is seakeeping. If you want to torpedo something you have to be fast or you're dead. 34kts is BARELY fast enough, especially now that there are 32kt CLs running around.

[snip]

what do you think about the two separate DD types? If I go for a battlefleet, I will need some good escort DD's

[Sachmle]

what do you think about the two separate DD types? If I go for a battlefleet, I will need some good escort DD's

WTF is an "Escort DD"? DDs shouldn't be used as escorts for anything. IF you want an escort use a light cruiser.

[snip]

So like Searchlight and/or Majastic then?

[Sachmle]

It comes down to what you want them to do. If you want destroyers to sink RRC/Swiss torpedoboats and hold off other destroyers then 4 4.7 or 5 3.9 would be better and you could settle for 33kts. If you want destroyers to sink RRC/Swiss cruisers/capital ships with torpedoes then 3 4.7 or 4 3.9 and 34kts would be better. It's really up to you and how you want to use them.

[snip]

hmmmmm...
I guess I have always seen DDs as being escorts for BB's simplely due to subs. But in the case of what they do in battle, I guess torpedo attacks on the battleline could be a good ability to have. So I guess the structure would look like this, in order of size.

Destoyers: Used for attack of enemy Capital units, general escort duties, and sub hunting
Scout cruisers: Used of Destroyer leaders, scouting for the battleline, and battleline escort
Cruisers: Used for commerce raiding, scouting for the battleline, and battleline escort.
Battleships: Used for engaging enemy capital units, shore bombardment, and "diplomatic duties"

So working with that...what do you think of what has been presented so far?

[TexanCowboy]

Snip, you must remember Destroyer orginally stood for Torpedo Boat Destroyer....