Builders League United designers present...

[Laertes]

Always happy to help my countrymen from the Vrystaadt. I shall get the BLU engineers onto it ASAP. Designing for such immense weapons will be interesting.

Re the torpedo debate:

IC: Current BLU thinking is that torpedoes are an asymmetrical weapon, and thus belong only on ships of CL size or smaller.

OOC: I'm glad there's contention. A lack of a "correct strategy" is always a more interesting strategic situation.

[Nobody]

...Vrystaadt...

...

???

...

maybe "Freistaat" = "free state"?



*just my two pence, for what happend inside my brain when I read it*



Anyway, I'm looking forward to it. And yes it is "interesting". That's why I called it a challenge in the first place. ^^

[damocles]

Always happy to help my countrymen from the Vrystaadt. I shall get the BLU engineers onto it ASAP. Designing for such immense weapons will be interesting.

Re the torpedo debate:

IC: Current BLU thinking is that torpedoes are an asymmetrical weapon, and thus belong only on ships of CL size or smaller.

OOC: I'm glad there's contention. A lack of a "correct strategy" is always a more interesting strategic situation.

Given the build constraints, the weaker power will usually choose asymmetry. Add to this, the factor that while a ship can limp home from gunfire damage (Fleet Problem IV, recently) its a different matter for the mine and torpedo. There the survival chances are very poor.     

[Valles]

Maori design principles agree that anything less than eight primary guns is essentially useful only at point-blank range. Strategically, they don't feel that the heavy 'armored cruiser' type - in any of its variations - has sufficient value to justify building them. They're good for commerce protection, really...

...but the Maori shut down their commerce during wartime - accumulate reserves of food and other imports during peacetime as insurance for that very element, in fact.

That being the case, there are really six warship niches that I can see them finding a real use for at this point.

1. Battle Line: A ship designed to smash large warships and shore installations by weight of long-range gunfire; also, an instrument of strategic initiative, who, by her existence and the threat she poses, dictates the enemy's strategic and tactical objectives. Tactical speed would be nice, but strategic speed is more useful - deep bunkers let her do her job better than big engines.

2. Escort: A ship designed to club destroyers to death en masse, like baby seals. Catching the things isn't necessary; if the DD doesn't come close enough to put a torpedo into what it's protecting, that's still a win.

3. Torpedo platforms: A ship designed to deploy torpedoes, scout for the battle line, and do anything else dashing and suicidal that the fleet needs done. Expendable, and thence to be built as cheaply as possible.

4. Supply Ships: Probably self explanatory. Non-combat designs.

5. Mine Warfare: Lay mines, sweep mines, swarm like locusts. Even cheaper than torpedo ships.

6. Submarines: Commerce raiding, without the risk. The least-useful category overall.

[Darman]

Egypt is also looking for a fast minelayer/minesweeper.  One has been designed based off a RN design from the 1930s (had to make it bigger to accommodate engine-tech differences) who's mission was to sprint to a point off an enemy port, deal with any MTBs that harass her, lay a minefield, and sprint away again before anything heavier than an MTB appears.  It also has minesweeping capabilities to sweep friendly ports. 

[Laertes]

maybe "Freistaat" = "free state"?

The Orange Free State is a province in South Africa famous for being full of hicks. (My grandfather was born there, and left as soon as he could.) When I saw a South African country called Orange, I assumed it was a reference.

Maori design principles agree that anything less than eight primary guns is essentially useful only at point-blank range. Strategically, they don't feel that the heavy 'armored cruiser' type - in any of its variations - has sufficient value to justify building them. They're good for commerce protection, really...

...but the Maori shut down their commerce during wartime - accumulate reserves of food and other imports during peacetime as insurance for that very element, in fact.

That being the case, there are really six warship niches that I can see them finding a real use for at this point.

1. Battle Line: A ship designed to smash large warships and shore installations by weight of long-range gunfire; also, an instrument of strategic initiative, who, by her existence and the threat she poses, dictates the enemy's strategic and tactical objectives. Tactical speed would be nice, but strategic speed is more useful - deep bunkers let her do her job better than big engines.

2. Escort: A ship designed to club destroyers to death en masse, like baby seals. Catching the things isn't necessary; if the DD doesn't come close enough to put a torpedo into what it's protecting, that's still a win.

3. Torpedo platforms: A ship designed to deploy torpedoes, scout for the battle line, and do anything else dashing and suicidal that the fleet needs done. Expendable, and thence to be built as cheaply as possible.

4. Supply Ships: Probably self explanatory. Non-combat designs.

5. Mine Warfare: Lay mines, sweep mines, swarm like locusts. Even cheaper than torpedo ships.

6. Submarines: Commerce raiding, without the risk. The least-useful category overall.

BLU recognises all these categories, and we feel that you summed them up very well. However, we also believe that there is a real need for fast warships capable of fighting small actions, separate from the large fleet engagements which seem to be the cornerstone of Maori doctrine.

As to ship designs - my weekend is sort of busy, I'll try to have a look at them ASAP. But it won't be today.

Egypt is also looking for a fast minelayer/minesweeper.  One has been designed based off a RN design from the 1930s (had to make it bigger to accommodate engine-tech differences) who's mission was to sprint to a point off an enemy port, deal with any MTBs that harass her, lay a minefield, and sprint away again before anything heavier than an MTB appears.  It also has minesweeping capabilities to sweep friendly ports.

BLU believes that a single large ship would be at too great a risk from shore batteries / MTBs / shore-based airplanes, and suggests that a small squadron of light destroyer-style hulls would be better suited to this style of warfare. Alternatively, submersibles, which have proven their ability to lay mines, and are naturally superb at strike-and-fade warfare, might be a good fit for this doctrine.

[Laertes]

My players haven't turned up yet, so:

Here's a suggestion for the Orange light cruiser. We experimented with getting her speed up to 32kn, and while it can be done, it's difficult to also armour her without dramatically increasing her block coefficient.

According to the Ballistics program, her main belt should be proof against the French 5.51" light gun at ranges greater than ~6km. We at BLU feel that if CLs are getting involved in fighting at ranges closer than that, something has gone dramatically wrong.

The misc weight allows her to carry a greater number of torpedoes, as well as comms and detection gear. If you prefer, some of this can be removed to make space for a greater number of AA guns.

We at BLU aren't sure why you specified both 40mm and 3" AA guns, but we put both on, since the customer can spend his cash on whatever he wants.



Dunedin, BLU Light Cruiser laid down 1920

Displacement:
   5,886 t light; 6,085 t standard; 7,301 t normal; 8,273 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   550.00 ft / 550.00 ft x 58.00 ft x 18.00 ft (normal load)
   167.64 m / 167.64 m x 17.68 m  x 5.49 m

Armament:
      8 - 6.00" / 152 mm guns (4x2 guns), 108.00lbs / 48.99kg shells, 1920 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 1 raised mount - superfiring
      4 - 3.00" / 76.2 mm guns in single mounts, 13.50lbs / 6.12kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      6 - 1.57" / 40.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.95lbs / 0.89kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 930 lbs / 422 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100
   4 - 20.0" / 508 mm submerged torpedo tubes

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   380.00 ft / 115.82 m   11.00 ft / 3.35 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 106 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.50" / 13 mm         -               -

   - Conning tower: 4.00" / 102 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 54,193 shp / 40,428 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 16.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 2,187 tons

Complement:
   394 - 513

Cost:
   £1.345 million / $5.379 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 116 tons, 1.6 %
   Armour: 791 tons, 10.8 %
      - Belts: 690 tons, 9.5 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 69 tons, 0.9 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 32 tons, 0.4 %
   Machinery: 1,895 tons, 26.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 2,844 tons, 39.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,414 tons, 19.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 240 tons, 3.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     7,935 lbs / 3,599 Kg = 73.5 x 6.0 " / 152 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 2.6 ft / 0.8 m
   Roll period: 15.1 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.37
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.32

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has raised forecastle
   Block coefficient: 0.445
   Length to Beam Ratio: 9.48 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.45 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 76
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.00 ft / 7.92 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   26.00 ft / 7.92 m (16.50 ft / 5.03 m aft of break)
      - Mid (50 %):      16.50 ft / 5.03 m
      - Quarterdeck (33 %):   16.50 ft / 5.03 m
      - Stern:      16.50 ft / 5.03 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.40 ft / 5.61 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 105.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 161.7 %
   Waterplane Area: 20,266 Square feet or 1,883 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 127 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 89 lbs/sq ft or 435 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.37
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[ctwaterman]

That last Cruiser with 4 guns was an interesting design I always figured 6 main guns was the minimum... either that or its a very fast Pre Dreadnaught with all the disadvantages drop off the speed and she would make a good heavy monotior.

Oh... an its too Early for Dual Purpose Secondaries not their quite yet.


As to torpedoes right now it has proven that you need more and better secondaries to smash a really determined, suicidal charge by massed destroyers.  Supported by a few cruisers.   So several nations are looking into heavier Secondary batteries and also looking at better secondary fire control and coordination.  I mean good lord there may have been 60 Torpedo Boats and small destroyers  but thats a 2 Battle Ships in the Body and fender shop.....

Also time too look at more modernization in the below water damage control and torpedo defenses.   The Torpedo used by New Swiss and New Zion were mostly a generation out of date and still quite effective even if they did loose hundreds of destroyers to achieve their desired aim.

As to air power in the game some people are building some experimental aircarft tenders and carriers a plane launched fighter shot down a patroling Zepplin in the recent rift war ;)  But the Zepplin was flying low and not expecting the attack.

Aircraft in the Rift War and now In China are launching small 16" torps and getting hits occassionaly but usually in small numbers.  So for now twin engined aircraft operating withing say 150 NM of their shore bases on the threat to ships.  Level bombing of ships in harbor and at sea has been tried.  I think we got a hit on one in a harbor.   I also doubt it was the ship the pilot was aiming at but there were so many targets available ;D

[Logi]

In China are launching small 16" torps

18" actually.

[ctwaterman]

I know the first airdropped torps were 18" Torps but unless you using a twin engined aircraft the range of a Single Engined Aircraft carrying an 18" Torp is about a 70nm combat radius based on the British experiment with them in 1916 off Galipoli.

Charles

[Logi]

Its a "light" 18" torp as I could not find a modern 16" Air-dropped torpedo.

[snip]

Assuming here that a "light" 18"=16" in terms of mass. Correct?

[maddox]

Torpedo Technologies
1890 Primitive (-2) : 800m@26kts range, 50kg warhead (-1 dam.), compressed air 0.5t, 16" dia.
1890 Dated (-1): 1200@26, 400@35, 100kg warhead (+0 dam.), compressed air 0.5t, 16"
1899 Baseline (0):3000@26, 1500@30, 100kg warhead(+0 dam.), early wet heater 1t, 18"
1905 Advanced (+1): 5000@26, 2200@35, 100kg warhead, imp. wet heater, 1t, 18"
1908 Cutting Edge (+3): 7000@26, 3000@35, 100kg warhead, imp. wet heater, 1t, 21"
1913: (+5) 15000@26, 10000@30,7000@35, 200kg warhead (+1), 2t, 21"
1918: (+8) 20000@26, 15000@30, 10000@35, 300kg warhead (+2) 3t weight, 24"

It's maybe something for the rules.  A kind of table were age, weight and available tech gives the user the possibility to create a torpedo that fits the bill. 
It came up earlier, DKB wished to develop a fat torpedo with earlier capacities to get "irl historical correct" torpedo capacity of the High sea fleet.

[Logi]

Would be something like a 16" Torp in mass.

[ctwaterman]

Its something we might all have to think about the first airborne torps were lightened versions of existing weapons but then people started to make dedicated Airborne Torps with more structural strength to withstand smacking into the water and less range because you were supposed to drop them at @900 yards or so from the target.

Charles