Battleships of the Mark into the 1920s

[Laertes]

I'm not attacking maddox; I understand his point and I think it's a worryingly valid and subtly made one.

As Logi points out, the Fleet In Being concept sort of evolved here as it did in OTL; decisive battle is too potentially expensive, in terms of treasure, prestige and warscore (for want of a better term) to allow anyone to actually seek it out. Thus, one could view battleship fleets as being a colossally expensive guarantee of mutual peace - which, considering the cost of war, is far from being a stupid idea.

Thinking about it, you could view the whole battleship age as being the long political shadow cast by Tsushima. By Jutland, they realised it wasn't as decisive as it was cracked up to be, but it wasn't until Taranto that anyone found anything that could replace it. The Nverse seems to lack anything like any of the three incidents... I wonder why we started to build battlewagons at all, then?

- Laertes
(Is hoping this turns into a match of hindsight-chicken)

[Ithekro]

There has been a large Battleship action in Navalism...but it was in 1900 between Rohan and the Anahuac (now MesoAmerica).  

Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands

(This was planned on being the Navalism Pre-dreadnought version of Jutland...it turned into the Navalism version of Tsushima when played out)

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=443.0

Ships lost on Rohan's side of the battle:

Battleship Helm Hammerhand - Heavily damaged during the Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.  Stricken from the Navy List on October 6, 1900 and scrapped.

Combat Cruiser Ondoher - Sunk in Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.
Combat Cruiser Argeleb - Crippled during the Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.  Stricken from the Navy List on June 12, 1900 and scrapped.

Belted Cruiser Orodruin - Exploded and sunk during the Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.

Armored Cruiser Beren - Crippled during the Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.  Sunk on the way to port on May 30, 1900.
Armored Cruiser Turin - Sunk in Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.
Armored Cruiser Egalmoth - Crippled during the Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.  Struck from the Navy List on June 12, 1900 and scrapped.
Armored Cruiser Belecthor - Sunk in Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.

Protected Cruiser Calenhad - Sunk in Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.
Protected Cruiser Halifirien - Crippled during the Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.  Sunk on the way to port on May 29, 1900.
Protected Cruiser Minrimmon - Sunk in Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.

Destroyer Haleth - Crippled during the Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.  Sunk on the way to port on May 29, 1900.
Destroyer Leofa - Sunk in Battle of the Revillagegedo Islands on May 28, 1900.

Anahuac Losses:

Battlebarges

11 (captured, sold to DKB in 1902 (SMS Paderborn-Delbrück), scrapped 1911)
10
8
4
3
1

Armored Barks

24
23
22
14
13
12
11
10
7

Torpedo Boats

94
93
92
91

[Jefgte]

References to histories are neccessary for the building (armor, guns, technos...) of the BB, BC, AC...
Tsushima, Jutland, Surigao...

But our N Verse contexte is different.
we have much BBs that there was in 1920.

It 's certainly interresting to list the total BBs & BCS in our N Verse & made comparison with the real 1920 list.
The countries are also very different.


Jef

[Ithekro]

An alternative Eorl with no end armor, the main and upper belts are extended slightly.

The main battery armor has be increased.  The sides and barbette are more to Rohirrim standards from the planned 1915 Eorl and the face armor is been increased to counter larger shells than the 14" gun battleships since there are more 15" and 16" gunned ships these days.

The Belt armor is reportedly inclined 19 degrees as per this note on the earlier designs (Main Belt inclined 19 deg. all armor +1 (imp. KC)).

It would be easier to just built this more or less as is than mess with it a lot since my SS2 skills are rusty, and Rohan needs a pair of Battleships under construction to replace the Aragorn and Narm.  I attempted to fit this one more or less using Rohan's earlier armor style.  Couldn't quite get it a comfortable as this design even thought the other design would have had thicker armor, just not be quite as tall a belt (old practise was 11 foot belts, so two 11 foot belts would be just a tad less than the 16 foot main and 8 foot upper belts used here).



Eorl, Rohan Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1920)

Displacement:
   33,000 t light; 34,774 t standard; 36,780 t normal; 38,385 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   679.00 ft / 664.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
   206.96 m / 202.39 m x 32.92 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
     9 - 15.50" / 394 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,951.00lbs / 884.96kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
     4 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (2x2 guns), 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     16 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (8x2 guns), 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, all amidships
     8 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
     12 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 18,486 lbs / 8,385 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   430.00 ft / 131.06 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
   Upper:   13.0" / 330 mm   430.00 ft / 131.06 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
     Main Belt covers 100 % of normal length
    Main Belt inclined 19 deg. all armor +1 (imp. KC)

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.50" / 38 mm   430.00 ft / 131.06 m   30.00 ft / 9.14 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   10.0" / 254 mm      14.0" / 356 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   3rd:   4.00" / 102 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
   4th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -
   5th:   1.00" / 25 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 46,000 shp / 34,316 Kw = 21.99 kts
   Range 8,525nm at 13.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,610 tons

Complement:
   1,327 - 1,726

Cost:
   £7.063 million / $28.251 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,211 tons, 6.0 %
   Armour: 14,106 tons, 38.4 %
      - Belts: 5,903 tons, 16.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 716 tons, 1.9 %
      - Armament: 3,302 tons, 9.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 3,875 tons, 10.5 %
      - Conning Tower: 310 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 1,608 tons, 4.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,574 tons, 39.6 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,780 tons, 10.3 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     57,048 lbs / 25,877 Kg = 30.6 x 15.5 " / 394 mm shells or 9.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.8 ft / 2.1 m
   Roll period: 17.4 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.65
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.49

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.598
   Length to Beam Ratio: 6.15 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 25.77 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 47
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 16.44 degrees
   Stern overhang: 6.00 ft / 1.83 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      30.50 ft / 9.30 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
      - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
      - Stern:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
      - Average freeboard:   21.26 ft / 6.48 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 52,369 Square feet or 4,865 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 207 lbs/sq ft or 1,013 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.58
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

[Ithekro]

Then there is a possible uprate version of the 1912 Belted Cruiser using the 1920 engine tech (also slightly cheaper)

Replaces the last four Taniquetil-class vessels which while one report says are being built I can't figure out when they started and then the four under construction in 1915 ended.  Unless someone has some information of those last four ships. (as noted in the H1/1917 report "the 4 Cruisers are Celebdil, Caradhras, Yaquina, & Karok (Aditional ships of the 1912 class)").

Celebdil, Rohan Belted Cruiser laid down 1919 (Engine 1920)

Displacement:
   8,000 t light; 8,398 t standard; 9,086 t normal; 9,637 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   500.00 ft / 490.00 ft x 67.00 ft x 20.00 ft (normal load)
   152.40 m / 149.35 m x 20.42 m  x 6.10 m

Armament:
      8 - 7.50" / 191 mm guns (4x2 guns), 210.94lbs / 95.68kg shells, 1919 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      16 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns in single mounts, 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1919 Model
     Quick firing guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread
      2 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns in single mounts, 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1919 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on centreline, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      8 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns in single mounts, 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1919 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 2,422 lbs / 1,098 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 150

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   420.00 ft / 128.02 m   9.00 ft / 2.74 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 132 % of normal length

   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   5.00" / 127 mm   5.00" / 127 mm      5.00" / 127 mm
   2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.75" / 19 mm         -               -

   - Armour deck: 2.00" / 51 mm, Conning tower: 5.00" / 127 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 46,000 shp / 34,316 Kw = 27.16 kts
   Range 7,000nm at 13.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,239 tons

Complement:
   464 - 604

Cost:
   £1.657 million / $6.628 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 303 tons, 3.3 %
   Armour: 2,283 tons, 25.1 %
      - Belts: 764 tons, 8.4 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 674 tons, 7.4 %
      - Armour Deck: 798 tons, 8.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 47 tons, 0.5 %
   Machinery: 1,608 tons, 17.7 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,607 tons, 39.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,086 tons, 11.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 200 tons, 2.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     12,220 lbs / 5,543 Kg = 57.9 x 7.5 " / 191 mm shells or 1.9 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.09
   Metacentric height 3.2 ft / 1.0 m
   Roll period: 15.7 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 70 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.46
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.17

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.484
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.31 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 22.14 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 56 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 60
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 14.03 degrees
   Stern overhang: 4.00 ft / 1.22 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      24.00 ft / 7.32 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Stern:      18.00 ft / 5.49 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.48 ft / 5.63 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86.2 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 159.4 %
   Waterplane Area: 21,567 Square feet or 2,004 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 112 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 112 lbs/sq ft or 546 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.94
      - Longitudinal: 1.76
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform

[Nobody]

I agree on the barbette.
But the rest of the turret is fairly well protected compared to otl battleships of the same size.

It somewhat hard to find data, but...

QE/R class: 11"
Standards: 9-10" inclined
Bayern: 250mm
Dunkerque: 250mm
Bismarck: 220mm

At least for Bismarck it should be mentioned that 220 mm (8.66") is the thickness behind the upper deck (50 mm), the citadel-armor (145 mm) or the main belt (320 mm). That considered I think its thickness is pretty good, the real weakpoint might have been the above deck barbette armor of 340 mm and the turret armor of 360 mm (max).

[Desertfox]

There are nations that think the battleship is obsolete. New Switzerland will build no more, and is seriously debating the value of even battlecruisers. NS has also shown how to defeat them. Had my ships not been low on fuel and escorting troop transports no French or German battleship would have made port after the 1st Battle of the Rift Sea... BCs at least have a chance at avoiding such an attack, BBs not so much. That war also showed one more thing, the airplane can kill ships...

[miketr]

We haven't really had a Dogger Bank like battle here yet, much less Jutland. There was one significant battleline engagement in the last Iberia/Austria v. Ottomans beatdown, but it was somewhat inconclusive.

Yes with all the sinkings caused by torpedo attacks after the battle lines broke off. 

In Nverse people might view the BB has a questionable investment.

Michael

[miketr]

It occurs to me that while navalism has lots of BB's in it they are all spread out.  Even France which has a strong battleline has it spread out all over the globe and doesn't have more than 4 or 5 in one spot I think.  We have had nothing like the WW1 battles where DOZENS of capital ships are just hammering away at each other.

With smaller fleets torpedo's while with big risk can have very large pay offs.

Michael

[snip]

Almost looks like Ultra-Heavy Cruisers could come to the front of naval thought. 10-12" guns with lots of escorts....

(runs to SS)

[miketr]

There is an advantage for the smaller ships in terms of speed of production.  I have thought for some time that perhaps a bonus for larger ships should be done.  Some type of production efficiency where larger ships cost less cash / BP.  No idea how to balance it so haven't made it a formal suggestion.

Michael

[P3D]

It occurs to me that while navalism has lots of BB's in it they are all spread out.  Even France which has a strong battleline has it spread out all over the globe and doesn't have more than 4 or 5 in one spot I think.  We have had nothing like the WW1 battles where DOZENS of capital ships are just hammering away at each other.

With smaller fleets torpedo's while with big risk can have very large pay offs.

Michael

Spreading out does not matter much. Players just redeploy the other half of the battlefleet from the other half of the world (after getting secured by guarantees/allies) in a mere weeks' time.

[miketr]

Spreading out does not matter much. Players just redeploy the other half of the battlefleet from the other half of the world (after getting secured by guarantees/allies) in a mere weeks' time.

How about very few nations in the game have more than half a dozen Dreadnought BB's and getting a dozen together is not a trivial act.

I don't know about other people but its always taken me several weeks if not two months to move crap around the globe.

Michael

[Sachmle]

Spreading out does not matter much. Players just redeploy the other half of the battlefleet from the other half of the world (after getting secured by guarantees/allies) in a mere weeks' time.

How about very few nations in the game have more than half a dozen Dreadnought BB's and getting a dozen together is not a trivial act.

I don't know about other people but its always taken me several weeks if not two months to move crap around the globe.

Michael

Agreed. It takes 2 months to get from Brandenburg proper to Ostafrika at 12kts. Can be shortened by going faster, but then I have to refuel more often and it's ~7,500nm from Neu Brandenburg to Neu Vogeldreck. It is the main reason I shoot for 7,500-8,000nm @14-15kts for cruising range on my newer ships.

[P3D]

Those values are for the turret sides, not the barbette sides. WWI ships had even more reduced barbette thickness below the weather deck.

At least for Bismarck it should be mentioned that 220 mm (8.66") is the thickness behind the upper deck (50 mm), the citadel-armor (145 mm) or the main belt (320 mm). That considered I think its thickness is pretty good, the real weakpoint might have been the above deck barbette armor of 340 mm and the turret armor of 360 mm (max).