Battleships of the Mark into the 1920s

[Ithekro]

With Rohan building two large fast battleships amd reportedly attempting to get some battlecruisers of Swiss design through channels (still not sure about that deal), the question comes what sorts of battleships should the Mark build to maintain fleet strength?  With treaty limitations the ideal large fast battleships aren't entirely viable.  However there is the option of maintaining a battleline style fleet by building heavily armed and armored battleships that are still not very fast (25 knots top end I suppose) as oppose to what happened in history of the fast battleships of the 1930s and 1940s (since there were very few ships of the 1920s).  Of course the airplane is a semi-factor at this point, but ot yet an ideology breaker.

So the question is what should the Mark be building in the coming decade?  They already have a start on a good cruiser type or two, plus I suppose the new Combat Cruiser style that is basically a light battlecruiser.  Destroyer design I suppose is a little behind the times, but that can be fixed eventually as the older destroyers age out.  Carriers will take a while as aviation tech catches up and the need for a flattop becomes evident.  The question becomes the maintaining of the battleships and battlecruisers as the main arm of the fleet and maintaining fleet numbers after the six pre-Arcadias age out during the 1920s and the early Arcadias require rebuilds or more to stay in the fleet.   Estimated numbers I think were for 20 battleships and 10 battlecruisers though this may be impossible with the rate of replacement thus probably maintain a total of 24 to 26 capital ships would be better (not counting the Combat Cruisers as capital ships since they are not designed for that purpose from my understanding).

Thoughts?

[mentat]

i'm not up to speed on the Treaty limits you mention - but there were some interesting BB design ideas in the Leviathan thread a few months ago - might be worth reviewing ....

[maddox]

Several big countries have agreed upon a kind of treaty concerning ships.

Every state has the "right" to build 2 40Kton warships  -Light displacement. (France has Montmedie and Mont Bruyere) .

And then there is no cap on any amount of ships up to 35 Ktons. No gun size limitation or other artifical laws.
If a ship is build that exceeds the weigth limit, of course inside some non debated amount, a fine is to be payed to the only world spanning humanitarian organisation , the Green Cross. This fine is set at $1 per Kton , per $0.5 increments.

[Laertes]

We at BLU feel that this will encourage the arms race to shift towards smaller ships, rather than leviathans. Since nations prefer to build their own leviathans, but may consider tendering for "smaller" vessels (if that phrase can be applied to 35kt BBs and CCs) BLU's directors and shareholders believe this is a good thing.

[Carthaginian]

Rohan is in on the Richmond Treaty, so it's limited to 35,000 tons. She already is actually OVER quota on her 'Treaty Busters'- so much so that Tan had to redesign one of the last BB's into a very powerful, very long-range BC. I'm not sure I have it's SS anymore, though.

[The Rock Doctor]

Unless you retain a lot of old stuff, I don't think Rohan has the ability to maintain 24-26 capital ships.  Your building capacity just isn't keeping up with size escalation.

I figured the Colombians would be lucky to maintain sixteen - more realistically, ten to twelve.  Rohan would be lucky, I think, to manage twenty.

I suspect Rohan's need for a flattop would be limited - it doesn't commerce raid, and most operations seem likely to be close to friendly shores.

[Carthaginian]

Retention/Refitting seems like it might just become a major thing in N-verse as we get into the 20's and start wanting fleets that are as big as our historical counterparts. With no WNT to force us to get rid of the older vessels in our fleet and with a much, much smaller building capacity, they are a lot more likely to hang around in the form of rebuilds or reconstructions.

[P3D]

Consider whether quality or quantity is important.
Rohan is about the only nation that can afford a two-tier navy, with a large number of slow "minimal" battleships (<30,000t) replacing old 12"-gunned vessels, complemented by BCs/fast BBs operating in divisions or individually.

[Ithekro]

For flattops I am evisioning maybe a total of 8 carriers by the early 1940s.  And these might not be Fleet Carriers but more a scouting force extension with the ability to provide air cover and/or a limited strike package type carrier.
 
Basically four pairs of carriers.  One for Rohan, One for each coast around Gondor, and one for South American waters or as reserve in Rohan.  They might even always operate in pairs, with one handling scouting/bombing while the other handles fighter operations (with the option of scouting as well). So light carriers I image (30-60 aircraft each) rather than converted Battlecruisers that can handle upwards of 100 planes.

Or maybe Rohan will do something unconventional and build some slower carriers (popssibly armored and at least armed to deal with destroyers and scouting cruisers) to operate near the battleline as fighter protection/scouts/spotters, and a small number of faster carriers to operate with the battlecruisers that might not be armored or armed all that well (aside from AA armaments that is).

Or get wacky and try to incorperate the long removed Eastern
Kingdom's ideology of Airship Power and add Airship Carriers to the list of wierdness in Navalism. 

[TexanCowboy]

Already have airship carriers.  :P

[mentat]

The treaty limits sound good - plenty of scope at 35 k tons - what are you planning - Super QEs at 25 knots and 15/16" or something slower and more firepower??

  - and the 40 k tons is good for Fast BBs at 28 knots  :D

[Ithekro]

I appear to have my 40k treaty limit ships under construction which seem to be Hood/Lexington like vessels.  The remainder of the fleet will probably become a standard Colorado/Nagto type with some faster 14" armed Battlecruisers and 12" armed Combat Cruisers to back them up.  Though there will likely be a small number of 15.5" armed Battlecruisers to maintain formations and the like (since there is one under construction it seems there should be a second unles it is meant to be the slightly lesser third Fast Battleship...reduced by treaty limits).

[Sachmle]

unles it is meant to be the slightly lesser third Fast Battleship...reduced by treaty limits

I believe it was just that in fact.

[Carthaginian]

Though there will likely be a small number of 15.5" armed Battlecruisers to maintain formations and the like (since there is one under construction it seems there should be a second unles it is meant to be the slightly lesser third Fast Battleship...reduced by treaty limits).

It was indeed.
I had the SS for it once upon a lost comp... but, alas no longer.

[Ithekro]

On I know where it is and have added most of the finalized designs to the encyclopedia section so they can be found easily.  In looking over the sim reports and things I seems the 1914/15 Battleships were scrapped on the slips in favor of finishing the earlier ones, and to make room for the new 36K+ Fast Battleships n 1916.  Eorl and Peregrin didn't have a lot of work done on them anyway...plus they were designed more like Italian Battleships than anything else (13 x 14" guns in twins and triples) so it might be for the best that they were never finished.

However when I finally do get up to making a 1919 sim report I'll need to select a battleship to lay down aside from the treaty compliant version of the Fast Battleships already in production in 1918.

This seems to be the choice made for the 1919 Battleship:

Eorl V.R., Rohan Battleship laid down 1919 (Engine 1920)

Displacement:
  33,000 t light; 34,774 t standard; 36,780 t normal; 38,385 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
  673.00 ft / 664.00 ft x 108.00 ft x 30.00 ft (normal load)
  205.13 m / 202.39 m x 32.92 m  x 9.14 m

Armament:
     9 - 15.50" / 394 mm guns (3x3 guns), 1,951.00lbs / 884.96kg shells, 1919 Model
    Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
    on centreline ends, majority forward, 1 raised mount - superfiring
     4 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (2x2 guns), 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1919 Model
    Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
    on centreline ends, evenly spread, all raised mounts
     16 - 4.50" / 114 mm guns (8x2 guns), 45.56lbs / 20.67kg shells, 1919 Model
    Quick firing guns in deck mounts with hoists
    on centreline, all amidships, 4 raised mounts - superfiring
     8 - 1.50" / 38.1 mm guns (4x2 guns), 1.69lbs / 0.77kg shells, 1919 Model
    Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
    on side, evenly spread
     12 - 0.75" / 19.1 mm guns (6x2 guns), 0.21lbs / 0.10kg shells, 1919 Model
    Machine guns in deck mounts
    on side, evenly spread
  Weight of broadside 18,486 lbs / 8,385 kg
  Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
  Main:   13.0" / 330 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
  Ends:   4.00" / 102 mm   264.00 ft / 80.47 m   16.00 ft / 4.88 m
  Upper:   13.0" / 330 mm   398.40 ft / 121.43 m   8.00 ft / 2.44 m
    Main Belt covers 93 % of normal length
    Main Belt inclined 19 deg. all armor +1 (imp. KC)

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
     1.50" / 38 mm   400.00 ft / 121.92 m   28.31 ft / 8.63 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
  Main:   16.0" / 406 mm   8.00" / 203 mm      13.0" / 330 mm
  2nd:   4.00" / 102 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
  3rd:   4.00" / 102 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      4.00" / 102 mm
  4th:   2.00" / 51 mm   1.00" / 25 mm            -
  5th:   1.00" / 25 mm   0.50" / 13 mm            -

  - Armour deck: 4.00" / 102 mm, Conning tower: 13.00" / 330 mm

Machinery:
  Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
  Electric motors, 4 shafts, 46,084 shp / 34,378 Kw = 22.00 kts
  Range 8,525nm at 13.00 kts
  Bunker at max displacement = 3,610 tons

Complement:
  1,327 - 1,726

Cost:
  £7.064 million / $28.254 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
  Armament: 2,211 tons, 6.0 %
  Armour: 14,051 tons, 38.2 %
     - Belts: 6,208 tons, 16.9 %
     - Torpedo bulkhead: 628 tons, 1.7 %
     - Armament: 3,029 tons, 8.2 %
     - Armour Deck: 3,875 tons, 10.5 %
     - Conning Tower: 310 tons, 0.8 %
  Machinery: 1,611 tons, 4.4 %
  Hull, fittings & equipment: 14,627 tons, 39.8 %
  Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3,780 tons, 10.3 %
  Miscellaneous weights: 500 tons, 1.4 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
  Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
    57,053 lbs / 25,879 Kg = 30.6 x 15.5 " / 394 mm shells or 9.7 torpedoes
  Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
  Metacentric height 6.7 ft / 2.0 m
  Roll period: 17.5 seconds
  Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 %
        - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.66
  Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.44

Hull form characteristics:
  Hull has a flush deck
  Block coefficient: 0.598
  Length to Beam Ratio: 6.15 : 1
  'Natural speed' for length: 25.77 kts
  Power going to wave formation at top speed: 43 %
  Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 49
  Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 16.44 degrees
  Stern overhang: -6.00 ft / -1.83 m
  Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
     - Stem:      30.50 ft / 9.30 m
     - Forecastle (20 %):   21.00 ft / 6.40 m
     - Mid (50 %):      20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Quarterdeck (20 %):   20.00 ft / 6.10 m
     - Stern:      22.00 ft / 6.71 m
     - Average freeboard:   21.31 ft / 6.50 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
  Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75.5 %
     - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 152.2 %
  Waterplane Area: 52,369 Square feet or 4,865 Square metres
  Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 104 %
  Structure weight / hull surface area: 208 lbs/sq ft or 1,016 Kg/sq metre
  Hull strength (Relative):
     - Cross-sectional: 0.95
     - Longitudinal: 1.54
     - Overall: 1.00
  Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
  Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
  Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
  Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily

500 tons Misc. Weight
250 tons 1912 FC (to be refitted to 1918 FC when possible)
50 tons Flag Facilities
50 tons Crew Comfort (Heating, Cooling, Aditional Coffee Pots)
25 tons Long Range Wireless
25 tons Improved Huelsmyer type Radar
25 tons Single Flying Boat and Facilities
125 tons Reserved