Colombian Not-To-Be Ships

[damocles]

Demarce IV(conversion  , Holland Seaplane tender laid down 1912

Displacement:
   10,903 t light; 11,174 t standard; 12,888 t normal; 14,259 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   552.17 ft / 552.17 ft x 52.49 ft (Bulges 62.49 ft) x 26.25 ft (normal load)
   168.30 m / 168.30 m x 16.00 m (Bulges 19.05 m)  x 8.00 m

Armament:
      32 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15 lbs / 7 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 1,500

Armour:
   - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   4.00" / 102 mm   413.39 ft / 126.00 m   10.00 ft / 3.05 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 115 % of normal length

   - Armour deck: 2.25" / 57 mm, Conning tower: 2.25" / 57 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 90,982 shp / 67,873 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,085 tons

Complement:
   604 - 786

Cost:
   £0.891 million / $3.564 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 1,501 tons, 11.6 %
      - Belts: 672 tons, 5.2 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 802 tons, 6.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 27 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 3,628 tons, 28.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,323 tons, 25.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,984 tons, 15.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 2,450 tons, 19.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     9,627 lbs / 4,367 Kg = 20,192.5 x 1.0 " / 25 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.11
   Metacentric height 2.3 ft / 0.7 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.06

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.498
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.84 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.50 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   18.60 ft / 5.67 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.60 ft / 5.67 m
      - Quarterdeck (8 %):   18.60 ft / 5.67 m
      - Stern:      0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.38 ft / 5.60 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 112.4 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 19,276 Square feet or 1,791 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 90 lbs/sq ft or 441 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.95
      - Longitudinal: 1.49
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

3100 tons misc.
  150 tons fire control
     25 tons radio
     25 tons radar
     25 tons acoustics
   525 tons ammunition and fuel
--------------------------------------------
2350 for aircraft
550 x 60 / 70 = 38.5 aircraft.
Sq. rt. of 2350 = 48 aircraft

This is a possible seaplane conversion of a Demarce IV.

Left the armor belt in.

Converting a Demarce to a seaplane tender would neglect the main advantage of the ship....mainly, that it could operate with a fast battlefleet, or even the battleline. To recover the seaplanes (and maybe even to launch them), they would need to drop out of it's "group" behind the battleline, making it vunerable to enemy attacks and dropping it far behind the battleline, over which it has a....6 knot advantage, give or take. Then it would need to go to flank for two hours to catch up to the line, if it stopped for 20 minutes, a reasonable amount of time to recover two-four floatplanes.

Also, removing belt armour is highly unpracticable, and 20 floatplanes wouldn't fit on there, considering that a floatplane would need to be stored in a above deck hanger, as it would be highly impractical to use a elevator.

1. The Dutch seaplane (1920) would be an amphibian at this point.
2. Nobody knows how to use a carrier yet.
3. The operative word is tender.
4. So far as the Dutch are experienced in this, they think any aircraft at sea is better than nothing.
5. The Dutch already understand that planes are stored on the flight deck and that the hanger is a workshop.
6. A crane was and is part and parcel of a carrier or a tender as a cargo transfer tool.
7. A fore and aft elevator setup is not only practical, its necessary. The seaplane wings on the W-3 is hinged to fold back.  

I went through this discussion with Crapfest I. The Dutch conversion will be Nverse compliant in that it is a seaplane tender at this point since that is the best the Dutch are capable of doing at the moment.  

D.

[TexanCowboy]

A seaplane tender was simmed rather differently then a regular carrier, due to the restraints of needing less deck space, and more above deck storage......if someone still has the orginal Springstyle around *looks at Rocky*, there were notes on how to sim those there.

[damocles]

Agreed, but the Dutch don't know how to build one of those either. What they will know is based on the Crapfest I. It is a "Dutch" design based on a flying off deck. No catapults means a long deck takeoff run, either from a trolley truck or from wheeled floats. (roller skates)     

[TexanCowboy]

No, I mean the basic rules for simming a seaplane tender....they're lying somewhere around in the Springstyle manual.

[Logi]

Too much AA on that seaplane tender, damocles.

[Carthaginian]

I agree with Logi- jusat because aircraft are being carried doesn't mean that they are perceived as the primary threat. Remember, Akagi was still loaded down with 8" guns when she was first launched. Aircraft are cheap, fast, dandy little scouts... but not a threat to warships.

[damocles]

Zeppelins. Schoepen was followed by them continuously during Fleet Problem IV.

Concentrated machine cannon fire works.

D.

[TexanCowboy]

No 1'' machine gun is going to reach up 6 odd kilo's, at least.

[Carthaginian]

The 25mm's are only useful if the Zep is below 3000m right over you, or is below 1000' at less than a mile.
Sorry, but those are pretty much useless against zeps in these situations.

Either your are arming against airplanes, or motorboats.

[maddox]

Part of this posting

Chairman, the main advantages of the airships are their endurance, payload capacity and potential in altitude.
We had a test flight with an unloaded type 2, with only balast and fuel for a 2 hour flight and the crew couldn't get to the maximum the airship was willing to do. Above 5000 meters all people seem to have trouble breathing,and the cold was sapping all strength of the crew. Some reported problems as low as 3000 meter. This is known as Soroche. Altitude sickness.  We are conducting tests now to find out what we can do about it. Also, the engines don't deliver the power as they do on sealevel. But this is a known issue, and can be worked around by using the newest kind of engines.

France does learn from mistakes. Sometimes, if profit is involved, or new kinds of depraved decadence.

[damocles]

No 1'' machine gun is going to reach up 6 odd kilo's, at least.

The Type 96 did.

[ctwaterman]

No 1'' machine gun is going to reach up 6 odd kilo's, at least.

The Type 96 did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_96_25_mm_AT/AA_Gun

This gun could engage targets at  6,800 meters at 45 degree of elevation however that still implies a target nearly directly over the target.  In addition this gun was evaluated as nearly completely useless against aircraft beyond 2000 yards.   Given that it was designed in 1935 we can guess that it wont be an effective anti Zeppelin gun in 1920.

For that we want a gun that can engage a target at or above 5000 meters and that is 5000 or even more meters away from the target.   Something like a 3" gun or something similar.

Charles

[damocles]

True, except for two things.

1. I have the gun under research testing based off the Browning short recoil action M-2 (just like the Russian 1 pounder based off the 1889 Maxim example) right now at Durham in the Dutch news and it is planned as standard armament in the 1920 program.
2. The 13 mm Browning is in existence and it is effective to 2000 meters slant against aircraft.

http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_50cal-M2_MG.htm

The 25 mm is extrapolated off the expected performance of the 13 mm Hotchkiss.

http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_13mm_aamg.htm
 

[ctwaterman]

True, except for two things.

1. I have the gun under research testing based off the Browning short recoil action M-2 (just like the Russian 1 pounder based off the 1889 Maxim example) right now at Durham in the Dutch news and it is planned as standard armament in the 1920 program.
2. The 13 mm Browning is in existence and it is effective to 2000 meters slant against aircraft.

http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_50cal-M2_MG.htm

The 25 mm is extrapolated off the expected performance of the 13 mm Hotchkiss.

http://navweaps.com/Weapons/WNFR_13mm_aamg.htm
 

Yes the Browning .50 cal is a nice gun my Italian Lisense built version will be a 13.2mm gun.  My version of the BAR will be 6.5mm just like my Bolt action rifles and light machine guns.

But to hit a Zeppelin moving at 40 MPH when its 3 miles away and 3+ miles up will take some serious effort even a target as large as that when its above 5000Meters it would have to be less then a 1000 meters from the side of your ship.

[damocles]

You need an effective slant range of 4.25 miles or 23,000 feet or 6750 meters. That is within the performance slant of the expected 25 mm.

What's more is that the way the 25 mm would be used is that it would be hose walked across a target the size of the Empire State Building at four miles. Granted that would take some good shooting, but with 8-12 machine cannon, the chances of a hit as opposed to a 3 inch or two are just much greater.   

And anything Zep within bombing range is going to be shredded.