Colombian Not-To-Be Ships

[The Rock Doctor]

Maybe.  Depending on what the next player does.

A-Class destroyers - intended for 1920 lay-down.  Figured these would replace the older H/I/J class boats as escorts for independent protected cruiser divisions.  Incomplete sketch follows at the bottom.

Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1920

Displacement:
   1,460 t light; 1,525 t standard; 1,700 t normal; 1,839 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   381.09 ft / 377.30 ft x 34.45 ft x 10.17 ft (normal load)
   116.15 m / 115.00 m x 10.50 m  x 3.10 m

Armament:
      4 - 4.72" / 120 mm guns in single mounts, 52.91lbs / 24.00kg shells, 1920 Model
     Breech loading guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on centreline ends, evenly spread, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
      1 - 2.56" / 65.0 mm guns in single mounts, 8.38lbs / 3.80kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft gun in deck mount
     on centreline amidships, 1 raised gun
      4 - 0.57" / 14.5 mm guns (2x2 guns), 0.09lbs / 0.04kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
      2 - 0.31" / 8.0 mm guns in single mounts, 0.02lbs / 0.01kg shells, 1920 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 220 lbs / 100 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 250
   6 - 21.0" / 533 mm above water torpedoes

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   0.98" / 25 mm   0.39" / 10 mm            -
   2nd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -
   3rd:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 2 shafts, 41,000 shp / 30,586 Kw = 33.65 kts
   Range 8,500nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 314 tons)

Complement:
   132 - 172

Cost:
   £0.490 million / $1.960 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 27 tons, 1.6 %
   Armour: 9 tons, 0.5 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 9 tons, 0.5 %
      - Armour Deck: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Conning Tower: 0 tons, 0.0 %
   Machinery: 951 tons, 56.0 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 404 tons, 23.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 240 tons, 14.1 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 68 tons, 4.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     303 lbs / 137 Kg = 5.7 x 4.7 " / 120 mm shells or 0.2 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.31
   Metacentric height 1.6 ft / 0.5 m
   Roll period: 11.3 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.25
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 0.63

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.450
   Length to Beam Ratio: 10.95 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 19.42 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 66 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 78
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      21.49 ft / 6.55 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   16.40 ft / 5.00 m
      - Mid (33 %):      16.40 ft / 5.00 m (8.53 ft / 2.60 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   8.53 ft / 2.60 m
      - Stern:      8.53 ft / 2.60 m
      - Average freeboard:   11.54 ft / 3.52 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 198.0 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 82.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 8,291 Square feet or 770 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 54 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 31 lbs/sq ft or 150 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.50
      - Longitudinal: 0.61
      - Overall: 0.51
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is cramped
   Caution: Lacks seaworthiness - very limited seakeeping ability

[The Rock Doctor]

Studies for the 1922/3 capital ship program were heading towards treaty-max armored cruisers, though "fast battleship" would have been an equally valid term.  I was thinking of Domintador and Dictador as their names.  The design presumed a couple of techs - 1920 BB/AC and the 1918 CV techs - were completed by then.

Sketch at the bottom.  The admittedly strange citadel was intended to reflect contemporary Colombian architecture (~OTL Soviet "Brutalist"), though a larger version of the citadel on Ironside was a more conservative alternative.

Placement of the secondary battery was undecided.  An alternative I did not play with was changing those guns to twins, and putting another twin on either side of the citadel.


Enter ship name, Enter country Enter ship type laid down 1922

Displacement:
   40,343 t light; 42,298 t standard; 45,308 t normal; 47,716 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   799.17 ft / 793.96 ft x 107.94 ft x 30.84 ft (normal load)
   243.59 m / 242.00 m x 32.90 m  x 9.40 m

Armament:
     8 - 15.75" / 400 mm guns (4x2 guns), 2,204.62lbs / 1,000.00kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on centreline, all forward, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     12 - 5.51" / 140 mm guns (4x3 guns), 83.72lbs / 37.98kg shells, 1922 Model
     Breech loading guns in turrets (on barbettes)
     on side, all aft, 2 raised mounts - superfiring
     4 - 2.56" / 65.0 mm guns in single mounts, 8.38lbs / 3.80kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, all amidships, all raised mounts - superfiring
     4 - 1.46" / 37.0 mm guns in single mounts, 1.55lbs / 0.70kg shells, 1922 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 18,681 lbs / 8,474 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 100

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   13.8" / 350 mm   465.88 ft / 142.00 m   16.01 ft / 4.88 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 90 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      1.97" / 50 mm   543.31 ft / 165.60 m   29.07 ft / 8.86 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   15.7" / 400 mm   9.84" / 250 mm      15.0" / 380 mm
   3rd:   2.95" / 75 mm         -               -
   4th:   0.98" / 25 mm         -               -
   5th:   0.39" / 10 mm         -               -

  - Armour deck: 3.94" / 100 mm, Conning tower: 13.78" / 350 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Direct drive, 4 shafts, 142,000 shp / 105,932 Kw = 29.05 kts
   Range 20,000nm at 10.00 kts (Bunkerage = 5,418 tons)

Complement:
   1,552 - 2,018

Cost:
   £10.463 million / $41.851 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2,083 tons, 4.6 %
   Armour: 14,981 tons, 33.1 %
      - Belts: 4,524 tons, 10.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,150 tons, 2.5 %
      - Armament: 4,364 tons, 9.6 %
      - Armour Deck: 4,565 tons, 10.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 377 tons, 0.8 %
   Machinery: 4,817 tons, 10.6 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 17,912 tons, 39.5 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 4,965 tons, 11.0 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 550 tons, 1.2 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     51,994 lbs / 23,584 Kg = 26.6 x 15.7 " / 400 mm shells or 7.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.08
   Metacentric height 6.5 ft / 2.0 m
   Roll period: 17.8 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 60 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.70
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.15

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has rise forward of midbreak
   Block coefficient: 0.600
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.36 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 28.18 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 51 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 52
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: -3.28 ft / -1.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      29.53 ft / 9.00 m
      - Forecastle (16 %):   24.61 ft / 7.50 m
      - Mid (75 %):      24.61 ft / 7.50 m (16.73 ft / 5.10 m aft of break)
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   16.73 ft / 5.10 m
      - Stern:      16.73 ft / 5.10 m
      - Average freeboard:   22.95 ft / 7.00 m
   Ship tends to be wet forward

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87.3 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 180.5 %
   Waterplane Area: 62,680 Square feet or 5,823 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 108 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1,019 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.97
      - Longitudinal: 1.26
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent

[The Rock Doctor]

Carrier studies were headed in this direction - two hangers, and a secondary taking-off deck forward.  I was aiming for a somewhat ugly appearance.

I never did sim it accurately, but figured I'd get about 15,000 t, 31 knots, and around thirty to forty aircraft.  Nomenclature for two units was not certain - I was thinking of a Santissima Trinidad or Salvador del Mundo to develop a theme of over-blown Spanish names, or Lord Protector or Republic as English names.

[The Rock Doctor]

Assuming the Colombians picked up a Demarce IV class cruiser from France, its destiny is indicated in this sketch:

[Carthaginian]

The carrier and the DIV sketch are a lot like what the CSA was thinking about- though the CSA was thinking of a no-island flattop early on.

[damocles]

At 550 feet, isn't the takeoff run too short?



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I would suggest that as seaplane tender would be more applicable?

D.   

[Carthaginian]

At 550 feet, isn't the takeoff run too short

About the same as U.S.S. Langley.
50' longer than the U.S.S. Bogue.

I'd say that it's more than sufficient.

[damocles]

At 550 feet, isn't the takeoff run too short

About the same as U.S.S. Langley.
50' longer than the U.S.S. Bogue.

I'd say that it's more than sufficient.

OOC and from history.
USS Bogue had a catapult and the Langley was well known for being too slow and short for safe aircraft operations post 1930.

IC
At this point, with no catapult tech at all, I would say the KoN KMS Crapfest 1 experiments history, as I plan for 1920-1921 in story, will still have the Dutch looking at a through-deck seaplane tender design when they plan the KMS Crapfest IIs (1920?) if they ever get any of them.  

Otherwise you are totally right, Carthage.

D.

[Carthaginian]

At 550 feet, isn't the takeoff run too short

About the same as U.S.S. Langley.
50' longer than the U.S.S. Bogue.

I'd say that it's more than sufficient.

OOC and from history.
USS Bogue had a catapult and the Langley was well known for being too slow and short for safe aircraft operations post 1930.

IC
At this point, with no catapult tech at all, I would say the KoN KMS Crapfest 1 experiments history, as I plan for 1920-1921 in story, will still have the Dutch looking at a through-deck seaplane tender design when they plan the KMS Crapfest IIs (1920?) if they ever get any of them.  

Otherwise you are totally right, Carthage.

D.

D.

Given a few factors I think 550' is PLENTY:
1.) The required takeoff speed of the average aircraft of this time period.
2.) The D IV's speed of advance eliminating your complaint with Langley.
3.) Several of the Japanese light carriers also had similar flight deck lengths/speeds.

So, if you look at the COMBINED traits of a carrier conversion of this vessel, your complaints are pretty much moot. Will the vessel make it for more than 5-6 years as a front-line carrier? Hell, no... but then again, I don't think that it would be meant to. At best, it would be an experimental vessel forced to serve in a front-line capacity only in the event of a lack of replacement.

In short, like Hosho, it will be good enough as a starting point, but not good enough for real work.
Besides... the CSA will have catapult tech soon; this solves your other mentioned problem.  :P

My real concern is the vessel's beam rather than it's length.

[The Rock Doctor]

I had the view that it was potentially a larger, faster, cheaper alternative to building new Espiritu Santo-type carriers. 

The Colombians would have the same difficulty with the remnant superstructure placement that UK had with the Vindictive.  This would be an improvement on the informal landing experiments taking place with the Yubarta, but still indicate that a cleaner deck is needed.

At the same time, the speed would be useful for launching fighters and possibly scouts.

Agree on the width - I figured two two-seater aircraft, with wings folded, could be jammed into a lightweight hanger side by side, but it'd be crowded.  Aircraft capacity with this still of conversion probably wouldn't be much different from Vindictive's historical number.

[Carthaginian]

The Colombians would have the same difficulty with the remnant superstructure placement that UK had with the Vindictive.

"Prepare to execute emergency landing plan 'B'"

"What's emergency landing plan 'B'"

"I don't have a clue."

"'B'- as in BARRICADE!"

[TexanCowboy]

"Prepare to execute emergency landing plan 'D'"

"What's emergency landing plan 'D'"

"I don't have a clue."

"'D'- as in DUCK TAPE!"

*runs away*  ;D

[Jefgte]

..."Prepare to execute emergency landing plan 'B'"

"What's emergency landing plan 'B'"

"I don't have a clue."

"'B'- as in BARRICADE!"

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That is a landing in the suspender belt

;)  ;)  ;)


Jef

[damocles]

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Complaints about the beam, maybe then you would need to do this:

Demarce IV(conversion  , Holland Seaplane tender laid down 1912

Displacement:
   10,903 t light; 11,174 t standard; 12,888 t normal; 14,259 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   552.17 ft / 552.17 ft x 52.49 ft (Bulges 62.49 ft) x 26.25 ft (normal load)
   168.30 m / 168.30 m x 16.00 m (Bulges 19.05 m)  x 8.00 m

Armament:
     32 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1912 Model
     Machine guns in deck mounts
     on side, evenly spread, all raised mounts
   Weight of broadside 15 lbs / 7 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 1,500

Armour:

  - Armour deck: 2.25" / 57 mm, Conning tower: 2.25" / 57 mm

Machinery:
   Oil fired boilers, steam turbines,
   Geared drive, 4 shafts, 90,982 shp / 67,873 Kw = 31.00 kts
   Range 9,000nm at 14.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,085 tons

Complement:
   604 - 786

Cost:
   £0.891 million / $3.564 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 829 tons, 6.4 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armour Deck: 802 tons, 6.2 %
      - Conning Tower: 27 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 3,628 tons, 28.1 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 3,345 tons, 26.0 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,984 tons, 15.4 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 3,100 tons, 24.1 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     8,572 lbs / 3,888 Kg = 17,979.7 x 1.0 " / 25 mm shells or 1.3 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.06
   Metacentric height 2.1 ft / 0.6 m
   Roll period: 18.0 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 1.05

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.498
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.84 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 23.50 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 59 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 0.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      26.25 ft / 8.00 m
      - Forecastle (17 %):   18.60 ft / 5.67 m
      - Mid (50 %):      18.60 ft / 5.67 m
      - Quarterdeck (8 %):   18.60 ft / 5.67 m
      - Stern:      0.00 ft / 0.00 m
      - Average freeboard:   18.38 ft / 5.60 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 117.8 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113.1 %
   Waterplane Area: 19,276 Square feet or 1,791 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 115 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 91 lbs/sq ft or 444 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.96
      - Longitudinal: 1.50
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is cramped
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is adequate

3100 tons misc.
 150 tons fire control
    25 tobs radio
    25 tons radar
    25 tons acoustics
  525 tons ammunition and fuel
--------------------------------------------
2350 for aircraft
550 x 60 / 70 = 38.5 aircraft.
Sq. rt. of 2350 = 48 aircraft

This is a possible seaplane conversion of a Demarce IV.

------------------------------------------------------------------

The point is that you might add bulges to the hull and flare the superstructure to widen the flight deck to 80 feet.

Still the actual plane capacity would be about 20 aircraft?

The catapult tech for the Dutch is coming along, but they are behind everyone else so they need to build to what they have. 

D.

[TexanCowboy]

Converting a Demarce to a seaplane tender would neglect the main advantage of the ship....mainly, that it could operate with a fast battlefleet, or even the battleline. To recover the seaplanes (and maybe even to launch them), they would need to drop out of it's "group" behind the battleline, making it vunerable to enemy attacks and dropping it far behind the battleline, over which it has a....6 knot advantage, give or take. Then it would need to go to flank for two hours to catch up to the line, if it stopped for 20 minutes, a reasonable amount of time to recover two-four floatplanes.

Also, removing belt armour is highly unpracticable, and 20 floatplanes wouldn't fit on there, considering that a floatplane would need to be stored in a above deck hanger, as it would be highly impractical to use a elevator.