New large tender.

[damocles]

What level of CV tech is the Netherlands currently at, anyway?

4 x TT 2000t TBJ.....1.00.......0.00......1/6.............................................research
1918 catapult/trap..1.00.......0.00......3/6..............................................research
1914 Torpedoes(elc).0.25.......0.00......2/2..............................................integrate (Japan via MK)        
1915 floatplane........0.25........0.00......2/2..............................................integrate (Japan via MK)
AAA 40-80mm..............0.25.......0.00......2/2.............................................integrate from MK
All related to the 1920 experiments scheduled.

1918: gunpowder catapults for floatplanes; separate landing and taking-off decks for wheeled aircraft

[The Rock Doctor]

Okay, so a proper flat-top is a few years off, then.

[Carthaginian]

"lessons of Masirah and Aden"

Can you link the post(s) concerning these 'lessons'?

How did the Dutch find them out?
How good is any intelligence that the Dutch have about the incidents?
Were the Dutch actually there or was the info second or third hand?
Has enough time actually elapsed for those 'lessons' to be found out, sent home, lost, found, lost again, discovered in a foot-high stack of papers on a 3rd-class clerk's desk,passed up through normal bureaucratic channels, analyzed by 'The Powers That Be,' argued over, fought over, thrown out, brought back and finally acted upon?

Not even the parties involved have had that kind of time!!!

The CSA started thinking about aircraft on ships in about 1912, tried the idea, and threw it out so fast that a ship built to full military standard to test the idea never even entered service and is currently rusting away at Nachetz without even finding an aircraft durable enough to be launched form a catapult! We are only now digging the idea back out of the 'now why the hell would we want to do that' file and trying it with some of our newer aircraft (story forthcoming),


The Netherlands has done NOTHING with the idea but think. You don't get the U.S.S. Bouge or even the U.S.S. Langley from just thinking about it; maybe the Notoro, but not something much more advanced.


EDIT: If this is a ship meant for the late 20's, that's not too far fetched. But giving it a laydown of 1920 makes it look like it's ready to be laid down tomorrow. Hosho is still a real flattop.

Think more along the lines of the first refit of HMS Furious.

[damocles]

At least until 1922. since the KMS Vodan  is the experiment laid down in 1920 to work out wheeled aircraft landings and takeoffs. It is part of the Dutch research program. It is my Hosho, it is my test ship.

I can't build anything like a Ryujo until its finished and I have an idea of what a Dutch plane tender is like.

But I can build a Hosho to test concepts, can't I?

D

[damocles]

"lessons of Masirah and Aden"

Can you link the post(s) concerning these 'lessons'?

How did the Dutch find them out?
How good is any intelligence that the Dutch have about the incidents?
Were the Dutch actually there or was the info second or third hand?
Has enough time actually elapsed for those 'lessons' to be found out, sent home, lost, found, lost again, discovered in a foot-high stack of papers on a 3rd-class clerk's desk,passed up through normal bureaucratic channels, analyzed by 'The Powers That Be,' argued over, fought over, thrown out, brought back and finally acted upon?

Not even the parties involved have had that kind of time!!!

The CSA started thinking about aircraft on ships in about 1912, tried the idea, and threw it out so fast that a ship built to full military standard to test the idea never even entered service and is currently rusting away at Nachetz without even finding an aircraft durable enough to be launched form a catapult! We are only now digging the idea back out of the 'now why the hell would we want to do that' file and trying it with some of our newer aircraft (story forthcoming),

The Netherlands has done NOTHING with the idea but think.
You don't get the U.S.S. Bouge or even the U.S.S. Langley from just thinking about it.
Maybe the Notoro, but not something much more advanced.

Admiraal Schoepen fought as commander of the Dutch forces that were at Masirah and Aden.

http://www.navalism.org/index.php?topic=4967.msg62680#msg62680

He learned what I wanted and needed from those actions. If you can decipher his coded urgent report, you are more than welcome to the actual lessons learned.

D.

[Logi]

If you can decipher his coded report, you are more than welcome to the actual lessons learned.

Yes because coded messages are such fun to read :( We have code technology in the tech tree for a reason.

[damocles]

If you can decipher his coded report, you are more than welcome to the actual lessons learned.

Yes because coded messages are such fun to read :( We have code technology in the tech tree for a reason.

Its a part of war, Logi.

[Carthaginian]

He learned what I wanted and needed from those actions. If you can decipher his coded urgent report, you are more than welcome to the actual lessons learned.

The CSA doesn't have anything impressive in the way of code-breaking tech.
As an IC matter, I thus do not decode messages... even as an OoC thing (of course, my job, wife, personal life, etc also have a bearing on why I don't bother).

As far as 'we learned the lesson from one or two encounters a couple of days ago from one man's opinion'... well, that's about as far-fetched as efficiency in government. As a military man myself, I'd have to say that you don't really understand how military tactics develop... meaning incrementally 99.44% of the time- and generally painfully slow after several repeats of the same mistake.

Unless your admiral is an absolute totalitarian military dictator with complete control over the entirety of R&D, production and design for the entire military, you're looking at a 'lesson' that might take several more battles and almost a decade to process.

Remember, it only took the Japanese EIGHT YEARS to go from their first successful naval aviation strike missions to the construction of the Hosho.

[Desertfox]

I'm still wondering how Aden had anything that could translate into naval aviation.

The Swiss have fought like 20 battles where aviation would have been extremely useful, and even I still don't have a true carrier. That said I do have the most experience of anyone around of what airpower can do. And a Hosho is in my immediate plans.

[damocles]

He learned what I wanted and needed from those actions. If you can decipher his coded urgent report, you are more than welcome to the actual lessons learned.

The CSA doesn't have anything impressive in the way of code-breaking tech.
As an IC matter, I thus do not decode messages... even as an OoC thing (of course, my job, wife, personal life, etc also have a bearing on why I don't bother).

As far as 'we learned the lesson from one or two encounters a couple of days ago from one man's opinion'... well, that's about as far-fetched as efficiency in government. As a military man myself, I'd have to say that you don't really understand how military tactics develop... meaning incrementally 99.44% of the time- and generally painfully slow after several repeats of the same mistake.

Unless your admiral is an absolute totalitarian military dictator with complete control over the entirety of R&D, production and design for the entire military, you're looking at a 'lesson' that might take several more battles and almost a decade to process.

Remember, it only took the Japanese EIGHT YEARS to go from their first successful naval aviation strike missions to the construction of the Hosho.

1. You don't have the actual critical information I now have about Masirah, Cart.
2. The expedition was a near disaster that really shook up the Dutch military and political establishment as to how close run it was. It will change a nation's assumptions the way other military disasters have in history.
3. Admiraal Schoepen is not your military dictator, but is a proven battle leader and a validated military strategist who carried out a suicide mission with incredible success, his word carries a lot of weight in den Hague now-especially with NvR.  
4.

EDIT: If this is a ship meant for the late 20's, that's not too far fetched. But giving it a laydown of 1920 makes it look like it's ready to be laid down tomorrow. Hosho is still a real flattop.

Think more along the lines of the first refit of HMS Furious.

I'm Dutch, not Norman. I think cheap and simple.  
=================================================

I'm still wondering how Aden had anything that could translate into naval aviation.

I'm not going to tell you. You'll have to learn the way I did.

Foxy, your admirals weren't paying attention to their situations during your battles. Mine did.

[Desertfox]

Oh you are wrong, VERY wrong. Considering that the worst military disasters in Swiss history have come due to the LACK of proper recon.

Also remember the mass of cruisers I had? Plus those scouting Lavis. Recon is #1 in the mind of every Swiss commander.

[damocles]

Nice try, but I'm still not going to tell you.  ;D

[Logi]

Its a part of war, Logi.

It's also not very interesting to read sim-wise. When I sit back, relax, and crack open a news thread, I expect to fine news worth reading not a jumble of numbers, symbols, or letters.

News is fun to read, code is not.

Then there is the add-on of decryption tech. My nation may be able to decode, but Logi the player cannot. Does that mean the nation does not get to read? No... However, Logi the player will still ask the proper people for permission to decrypt the message and also t confirm that it is, in fact, within the tech limits of decryption for the nation.

We can distinguish between OCC and IC here, we are all at least that well of an RPer. Hence we do write SIC posts, not code it in a mess of jumble-mumble. I am perfectly capable of coding my messages to symbol codes with such random keys as to make the average person completely unable to decipher. I have 40 distinct codes for encryption. But is that fun to read? Is that in line with my encryption tech? To both the answer is no.

nysetoawthteshveijvkvhmiansh

I typed a sentence there. Was that fun to read? No.

Code is about as entertaining to read as reading nothing.

/rant

[damocles]

1. My style of play is not yours.
2. My method of play is to make you work for the information.
3. I already gave you everything you need to figure out Aden and Masirah in the Dutch News thread. 
4. Even here you have what you need.

D.

[Ithekro]

And the point of that for people not RPing at all is, what exactly?

I have no idea what or where this battle even happened, much less what lessons it might have given.  Nor who was involved.

Sure people and nations can have their secrets, but generally not at the cost of the game being fun, nor to the point of agrivating people who are attempting to understand how one nation is building something that it should not be building on a logical progressive level of technological and tactical knowledge.

Part of the problem might be the use of a "future" design as the basis for the comcept rather than something that looks more in period with the flaws usually associated with early naval aviation.

WesWorld's Chile started having carriers built for them in the late 1920s and early 1930s after building a small seaplane cruiser, buying a few floatplane carriers, and later setting up a land based training base with a runway the shape of the proposed carrier's deck with proper landing arrangements to train the pilots how the land usng hooks and a short landing area.  They however were relying on the experiance of a foreign power for the design and construction fo the carrier...so they were not starting from scratch.

The other question is more of purpose...same question I asked about the Chinese Carrier.  What is the carrier's role in the Dutch Fleet?  How do they see themselves using it with the relatively short ranged and flimsy aircraft of the early 1920s?  It's historical roll was simply a scout unit for the Battle Line.  Something that could extend the range and area the fleet could scout for enemy units and to assist in spotting for over the horizon shooting for the battleships if they didn't have a floatplane handy.  The Offensice operations for a carrier was something that came up later as the planes got better (aside from the Royal Navies wild idea to sink the at port High Sea's Fleet in 1919 using a combined sea and land-based air strike using the new carriers as part of the force...but this attack never happened).