New large tender.

[damocles]

Zeemeeuw, Holland large tender laid down 1920

Displacement:
   26,079 t light; 26,685 t standard; 28,400 t normal; 29,772 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   718.69 ft / 710.00 ft x 100.00 ft x 25.00 ft (normal load)
   219.06 m / 216.41 m x 30.48 m  x 7.62 m

Armament:
     8 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm guns (4x2 guns), 12.87lbs / 5.84kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
     Aft Main mounts separated by engine room
     32 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 118 lbs / 54 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 500

Armour:
  - Belts:      Width (max)   Length (avg)      Height (avg)
   Main:   3.00" / 76 mm   468.00 ft / 142.65 m   12.00 ft / 3.66 m
   Ends:   Unarmoured
     Main Belt covers 101 % of normal length

  - Torpedo Bulkhead:
      3.00" / 76 mm   468.00 ft / 142.65 m   22.95 ft / 7.00 m

  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm
   2nd:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

  - Armour deck: 3.00" / 76 mm, Conning tower: 3.00" / 76 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 4 shafts, 125,398 shp / 93,547 Kw = 30.00 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 3,088 tons

Complement:
   1,093 - 1,422

Cost:
   £3.638 million / $14.551 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 15 tons, 0.1 %
   Armour: 4,781 tons, 16.8 %
      - Belts: 725 tons, 2.6 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 1,192 tons, 4.2 %
      - Armament: 28 tons, 0.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 2,776 tons, 9.8 %
      - Conning Tower: 60 tons, 0.2 %
   Machinery: 4,385 tons, 15.4 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 10,699 tons, 37.7 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2,321 tons, 8.2 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 6,200 tons, 21.8 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     60,625 lbs / 27,499 Kg = 4,709.8 x 3.0 " / 75 mm shells or 8.7 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 6.0 ft / 1.8 m
   Roll period: 17.2 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 92 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.01
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.560
   Length to Beam Ratio: 7.10 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 26.65 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 54 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 46
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 10.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      49.31 ft / 15.03 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   48.65 ft / 14.83 m
      - Mid (50 %):      38.65 ft / 11.78 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   38.65 ft / 11.78 m
      - Stern:      38.65 ft / 11.78 m
      - Average freeboard:   42.20 ft / 12.86 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 93.9 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 357.0 %
   Waterplane Area: 50,017 Square feet or 4,647 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 143 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 122 lbs/sq ft or 598 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.86
      - Longitudinal: 3.90
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is adequate
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

6200 tons misc.
 250 tons fire control
   25 tons radio
   25 tons radar
   25 tons acoustics
1000 tons ammunition
1000 tons oil
3875 spare
720 x 100/1000=80 x 80% = 57.6

60 x 60 = 3600 with 275 tons spare. for aviation.

Notes: diesels exhausts through side mounted hull macks astern below the weather deck. Bridge control is a conning tower starboard amidships.


=================================================
Comments welcome:

[Carthaginian]

Got capital ship diesels? ;)

[The Rock Doctor]

This looks more like an aircraft carrier than a tender.  If it is a tender, you could do the same effective job on half the displacement if you dumped the armor and crazy speed.

[damocles]

This looks more like an aircraft carrier than a tender.  If it is a tender, you could do the same effective job on half the displacement if you dumped the armor and crazy speed.

Its an idea of what I think we have to do to make aircraft carriers real.

As a side note:
Aidern, Hollland fleer tender laid down 1920

Displacement:
   11,338 t light; 11,635 t standard; 12,729 t normal; 13,603 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   604.27 ft / 600.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 15.00 ft (normal load)
   184.18 m / 182.88 m x 22.86 m  x 4.57 m

Armament:
      32 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 15 lbs / 7 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 5,000

Armour:
   - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

   - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 13,798 shp / 10,293 Kw = 18.50 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,968 tons

Complement:
   598 - 778

Cost:
   £1.101 million / $4.406 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 667 tons, 5.2 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 11 tons, 0.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 644 tons, 5.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 482 tons, 3.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,187 tons, 40.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,390 tons, 10.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 5,000 tons, 39.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40,527 lbs / 18,383 Kg = 85,006.7 x 1.0 " / 25 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 15.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.660
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 32 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 31
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      48.80 ft / 14.87 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   46.42 ft / 14.15 m
      - Mid (50 %):      26.42 ft / 8.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   26.42 ft / 8.05 m
      - Stern:      26.42 ft / 8.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   33.61 ft / 10.24 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 56.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 343.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,789 Square feet or 3,232 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 191 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 423 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.87
      - Longitudinal: 3.48
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

5000 tons misc.
  250 tons fire control
    25 tons radio
    25 tons radar
    25 tons acoustics
500 tons ammunition
500 tons oil
3675 spare
600 x 75/1000=45 x 80% = 36

60 x 60= 3600 with 75 tons spare. for aviation.

Notes: diesels exhausts through side mounted hull macks astern below the weather deck. Bridge control is a conning tower starboard amidships.

Notes: diesels exhausts through side mounted hull macks astern below the weather deck. Bridge control is a conning tower starboard amidships.

That is a 'Bogue"; built to "Tender" standards.     

[damocles]

Vodan, Hollland fleer tender laid down 1920

Displacement:
   11,338 t light; 11,635 t standard; 12,729 t normal; 13,603 t full load

Dimensions: Length overall / water x beam x draught
   604.27 ft / 600.00 ft x 75.00 ft x 15.00 ft (normal load)
   184.18 m / 182.88 m x 22.86 m  x 4.57 m

Armament:
     32 - 0.98" / 25.0 mm guns (8x4 guns), 0.48lbs / 0.22kg shells, 1920 Model
     Anti-aircraft guns in deck mounts with hoists
     on side, evenly spread
   Weight of broadside 15 lbs / 7 kg
   Shells per gun, main battery: 5,000

Armour:
  - Gun armour:   Face (max)   Other gunhouse (avg)   Barbette/hoist (max)
   Main:   1.00" / 25 mm   1.00" / 25 mm      1.00" / 25 mm

  - Armour deck: 1.00" / 25 mm, Conning tower: 1.00" / 25 mm

Machinery:
   Diesel Internal combustion generators,
   Electric motors, 2 shafts, 13,798 shp / 10,293 Kw = 18.50 kts
   Range 10,000nm at 12.00 kts
   Bunker at max displacement = 1,968 tons

Complement:
   598 - 778

Cost:
   £1.101 million / $4.406 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
   Armament: 2 tons, 0.0 %
   Armour: 667 tons, 5.2 %
      - Belts: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Torpedo bulkhead: 0 tons, 0.0 %
      - Armament: 11 tons, 0.1 %
      - Armour Deck: 644 tons, 5.1 %
      - Conning Tower: 12 tons, 0.1 %
   Machinery: 482 tons, 3.8 %
   Hull, fittings & equipment: 5,187 tons, 40.8 %
   Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1,390 tons, 10.9 %
   Miscellaneous weights: 5,000 tons, 39.3 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
   Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
     40,527 lbs / 18,383 Kg = 85,006.7 x 1.0 " / 25 mm shells or 4.1 torpedoes
   Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1.10
   Metacentric height 3.9 ft / 1.2 m
   Roll period: 15.9 seconds
   Steadiness   - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 62 %
         - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.00
   Seaboat quality  (Average = 1.00): 2.00

Hull form characteristics:
   Hull has a flush deck
   Block coefficient: 0.660
   Length to Beam Ratio: 8.00 : 1
   'Natural speed' for length: 24.49 kts
   Power going to wave formation at top speed: 32 %
   Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 31
   Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 5.00 degrees
   Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
   Freeboard (% = measuring location as a percentage of overall length):
      - Stem:      48.80 ft / 14.87 m
      - Forecastle (20 %):   46.42 ft / 14.15 m
      - Mid (50 %):      26.42 ft / 8.05 m
      - Quarterdeck (15 %):   26.42 ft / 8.05 m
      - Stern:      26.42 ft / 8.05 m
      - Average freeboard:   33.61 ft / 10.24 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
   Space   - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 56.5 %
      - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 343.9 %
   Waterplane Area: 34,789 Square feet or 3,232 Square metres
   Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 191 %
   Structure weight / hull surface area: 87 lbs/sq ft or 423 Kg/sq metre
   Hull strength (Relative):
      - Cross-sectional: 0.87
      - Longitudinal: 3.48
      - Overall: 1.00
   Hull space for machinery, storage, compartmentation is excellent
   Room for accommodation and workspaces is excellent
   Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

5000 tons misc.
 250 tons fire control
   25 tons radio
   25 tons radar
   25 tons acoustics
500 tons ammunition
500 tons oil
3675 spare
600 x 75/1000=45 x 80% = 36

60 x 60= 3600 with 75 tons spare. for aviation.

Notes: diesels exhausts through side mounted hull macks astern below the weather deck. Bridge control is a conning tower starboard bow.

That is a 'Bogue"; built to "experimental" standards.    

[The Rock Doctor]

...No, that's a purpose-built aircraft carrier.

[damocles]

...No, that's a purpose-built aircraft carrier.

I figured the costs at about ~ 12$ and 12 BP. I call it a tender because that is how I classify it and treat its SS misc. weight by function.  

I thought we were talking past each other yesterday, but I wasn't sure. Now I am sure that I was unclear as to what I meant when I described how I SS a carrier.  I just don't see you not misc. weight the aviation stores to get the correct aircraft capacity tonnage. Otherwise, you wind up with 45 plane capacity carriers on 10,000 tons and that is ridiculous.  

D.    

[The Rock Doctor]

Okay, I guess we were talking past each other; the cost is correct for a carrier, or what the Dutch are calling an aircraft tender.

The rules set assumes that the miscellaneous weight per aircraft includes ordnance and avgas.  As for 45 aircraft on 10,000 t - that's when we have to start applying common sense over literal wording of the rules.  Wesworld struggled with small carriers as well, I recall.

[Carthaginian]

I just noticed this- 'acoustics' as in 'listening devices' or as in 'SONAR'?
'Cause only the Sovs ever thought it was a good idea to mount sonar on a carrier... and only then because they used their carriers (built in the 70's) vastly different than any other navy in the world.

Also, WHY would the Dutch be building a carrier?
Have they ever even experimented with naval aviation, or used aircraft in any major function?
A purpose-built carrier with no previous attempts to put aircraft on ships is kinda fishy, don't ya think?

[Kaiser Kirk]

'Cause only the Sovs ever thought it was a good idea to mount sonar on a carrier...

just as an info tidbit, the USS America CV-66 was fitted with Sonar AN/SQS-23 as well. I had thought it was the JFK, but when I went to check found they never fitted it on her. The quick search also turned up that the INS Viraat is fitted with Sonar.

But as a rule, nope they didn't bother with it.

[Carthaginian]

Like I said... only the Sov's thought it was a GOOD IDEA (meaning 'something worth doing more than once') and only then due to their massively different operational doctrine for carriers.

Didn't know that about the Viraat, but as India makes use of a lot of Russian/Soviet tactics and equipment, I'm not surprised that they didn't try it once as well. It'll be interesting to see if an indigenous carrier will continue the trend.

[damocles]

I just noticed this- 'acoustics' as in 'listening devices' or as in 'SONAR'?
'Cause only the Sovs ever thought it was a good idea to mount sonar on a carrier... and only then because they used their carriers (built in the 70's) vastly different than any other navy in the world.[/qoote]

The Japanese in WW II mounted acoustic gear in their carriers. 



Admiraal Schoepen's report on the Masirah operation is why.

Have they ever even experimented with naval aviation, or used aircraft in any major function?

The Dutch are experimenting with land-based air recon.

purpose-built carrier with no previous attempts to put aircraft on ships is kinda fishy, don't ya think?

If you can, then read the report.

D.

[Carthaginian]

Still, building a flattop wit no other aviation ships is something that NO ONE did.
Even the United States had floatplanes, some tenders, and did experiments with temporary flying-off and landing decks on cruisers before embarking on a very modest conversion to an aircraft carrier.

You, OTOH, are building the U.S.S. Bouge from a standing start with virtually no aviation experience.
'Experimenting with land-based aerial recon' is a LONG way from building a functioning carrier from the keel up, no matter how you try and justify it. I mean, you DO realize that the US had been experimenting with aerial recon for over 10 years before building a carrier?

Building a carrier isn't something that a navy does without a lot of research.
It's pretty early for ANY of us to start strapping a flight deck onto a ship- simply because only about 4 nations have even DABBLED in naval aviation.

[damocles]

The lessons of Masirah and Aden I just learned are now very plain enough.

As of 1918 the Dutch have used land-based seaplanes for training and experiments with their fleet.

They are researching the tech trees as well.

D.

[The Rock Doctor]

What level of CV tech is the Netherlands currently at, anyway?